The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #71021 Message #1212987
Posted By: GUEST,MCP
23-Jun-04 - 01:01 PM
Thread Name: Using Quarter tones
Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
OK. Here are the most salient posts of the microtonal discussion on the abcusers list. It's mainly proposals for the representation of the microtones, which I think is what you're after. (I didn't check sourceforge to see if any of the abc work there has actually implemented players. Some of the discussants in the e-mails might be worth talking to to see if there's anything more recent (the abcuser list has been quiet recently after the enormous discussion of the proposed 2.0 standard). I've tried to leave the addresses in the posts). It's a bit long I'm afraid.
e-mail: hajdu@musikhochschule-hamburg.de e-mail: georghajdu@mac.com http://www.georghajdu.de/index.html http://www.quintet.net/ **************************************************** On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Georg Hajdu wrote:
> The parsing of xml files seems more difficult,
XML is very easy to parse: you can make use of several free off-the-shelf parsers that either create a complete document tree (DOM standard) or generate parser events (SAX standard).
Just have a look at http://xml.apache.org/ for one of the available solutions.
> > In abc the capital letters H..Z are reserved for > > user-defined purposes. Software which supported > > microtonal accidentals could make use of these.
That is not a good idea. Several of these letters (THLMPSO?) have already a predefined meaning. It would be better to leave these letters free.
> Now, what about some other ascii 128-255 characters? > Are they supported by abc?
That is also not a good idea. Chars 128-255 are not defined by ASCII and have a different meaning depending on the code page that you use on your computer.
Using these chars would change ABC from a text format into a binary format.
I think the best solution would be to use the !...! symbol notation to add extra symbols to the abc language. Something like !sharp1!, !sharp2!, !sharp3! etc. If the user so desires, he could bind these symbols to some of the free letters, via the U: mechanism.
Your example would be _1A (Accidentals come before the base note).
Let me know what you think.
BTW: Is there no 7/8 sharp or flat? do double accidentals occur in microtonal notation?
Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim i.oppenheim@xs4all.nl ~~~* To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
4/8 sharp IS a full sharp (as you know, the reference interval is always a whole tone). Therefore labeling it ^4 may be a bit misleading, but it's ok if you can use the symbols alternatively. Other than that, I like it.
Microtonal notation is mostly used to approximate tonal events that can't be described with 12 TET (12-tone equal temperament). While a 7/8-tone sharp theoretically exists, one would rather think of it as a 1/8-tone lowering of the tone a whole step above. So, instead of thinking C 7/8 sharp, think D 1/8 flat.
Regards,
Georg Hajdu
Hmmm.... There is a semantic difference between ^d and _e. For instance, the Cmin scale includes _e, and the EMaj scale includes ^d. Under an equal-temperment scale, there is no difference in sound (both would be 7500 MIDI cents, if I'm interpreting the MIDI cent scale properly), but musically, they are treated differently in notation and meaning.
If there is no reason to specify ^7C, on the grounds that it would be easier to think of _1D, why not go further, and only specify _D, _3D, _2D, _1D, C, ^1D, ^2D, ^3D, ^D/_E, _3E, etc?
Actually, I could suggest another notation: _#C, where # is a single digit, means flatting C by that many eighth-tones. For finer control, _##C, where ## is a pair of digits, means flattening C by that many cents, or 100ths of a semitone. ^#C and ^##C have analogous defintions, but sharpening instead.
The note halfway between E and F could be represented as ^2E, ^50E, _2F, or _50F. F itself could be ^E, ^4E, ^0F, ^00F, F _8G, or __G (or, if you really wanted, ^^^D).
From: Buddha Buck
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Georg Hajdu wrote:
> 4/8 sharp IS a full sharp (as you know, the reference interval is > always a whole tone).
Sorry, I didn't realize that. I thought you were dividing a regular sharp into 8 pieces. Now I understand we are actually dealing with eighth-tones.
> Therefore labeling it ^4 may be a bit misleading, but > it's ok if you can use the symbols alternatively.
It's probably best to allow ^0 to ^8, where '^0' is the same as '=', '^4' is the same as '^' and '^8' is the same as '^^'
> Other than that, I like it.
Now the next step. How do these special symbols (^1 ^2 ^3 ^5 ^6 and maybe ^7) look---do you have an example? How do they sound---are it exact eighth-tones?
Are you going to implement this extension yourself?
Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, John Chambers wrote:
> Buddha Buck writes: > | Georg Hajdu wrote: > | Actually, I could suggest another notation: _#C, where # is a single > | digit, means flatting C by that many eighth-tones. For finer control, > | _##C, where ## is a pair of digits, means flattening C by that many > | cents, or 100ths of a semitone. ^#C and ^##C have analogous > | defintions, but sharpening instead.
> Or, to be consistent with the rest of abc, we could just put a length > after an accidental. So _2/3A would be an A that is flatted 2/3 of a
The _# notation is already consistent with the rest of ABC. See, note lengths are always given relative to the default fraction specified in the L: field. The default fraction of the _# notation just happens to be an 1/8th.
Wouldn't a resolution of an 1/8th note be sufficient for musical notation?
Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html I must admit that I like Buddha Buck's idea the best. I'd like to suggest a small modification in case someone ever needs a subdivision of the whole tone smaller than 1/8. 1. The step size should be defined in a special field in analogy to the default fraction specified in the L: field (as Irwin Oppenheim suggested) 2. _# and _## resp. ^# and ^## should denote step sizes in respect to the default fraction 3. _### or ^### should denote deviations in cent (with a leading 0). Example: ^098A. These deviations should be printed above the notes (without leading 0) just like chord symbols (this is standard in some microtonal literature).
e-mail: hajdu@musikhochschule-hamburg.de e-mail: georghajdu@mac.com http://www.georghajdu.de/index.html http://www.quintet.net/ **************************************************** Sorry, what I meant was ratio not step size. I still think this should defined in a separate line.
I might use an incomplete abc implementation (only the things I really need) in my own real-time notation program; I'll leave it to others to integrate Buddha Buck's or my suggestions in their more complete implementations.
Nevertheless, it would be nice to see whether or not there could some agreement in the abc community on microtonal notation.
Regards,
Georg
On Thursday, June 26, 2003, at 06:42 PM, I. Oppenheim wrote:
e-mail: hajdu@musikhochschule-hamburg.de e-mail: georghajdu@mac.com http://www.georghajdu.de/index.html http://www.quintet.net/ **************************************************** I've read with great attention and interest the last thread about microtone. Although I'm not an expert in this field, I'm interested in writing notation for persian music, and playing it as well. I regret I haven't worked much on this project (including transcribing music) recently, but I had a page about what I've done so far : http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/persian_music.html
I haven't looked for a complicated to set solution, and this way it's not practical to use. I couldn't program myself a new program so I've just redefined some %%deco for Abcm2ps and I've recompiled Abc2midi to play it roughtly.
I've used at that moment the same idea proposed here :
>I think the best solution would be to use the !...! >symbol notation to add extra symbols to the abc >language. Something like !sharp1!, !sharp2!, !sharp3! >etc.
The only advantage is it's backward compatible with old notations. But it's a pain to write and not really readable (see example below)
So I've used !koron! and !sori! (koron is for between flat and full note, while sori is between sharp and full note) for this. After the note I've put !=! it is for telling Abc2midi that it has to come back to the normal pitch bend (in order to "close" a note with this otherwise the rest will be detuned). As I said it's not fine to use.
I've also set another kind of symbols, for western music (in fact it's the general symbols for 1/4 tone), it's just !b! and !#! , with also the use of !=! for abc2midi. Not better :)
You can have a look at the display here :
X:1 T:Daramad of Shur L:1/8 Q:1/4=135 M:no K:C %%MIDI program 111 d !koron!e !=! g f !koron!e !=! d c _B A G A d2 {c}_B2 {A}G2 | G A c _B A G F !koron! E !=! D !koron! E !=! F G A c {_B} A2 {G} F4 | FFF A2 G2 {F}!koron! EEE !=!G2 F2 {!koron! E !=!} DDDF2 !koron! E2 !=! |
http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/daramad_shur.png
The output from my customed abc2midi, but since it's pitch bend, it's not nice to hear (there is also a pb of rythm, but it's because original has some free rythms) : http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/daramad_shur.mid and the original : http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/daramad.mp3
For western music, the other notation I used is here :
and the outputs : http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/tonPlinn.mid http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/tonPlinnMelanie1.mid http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/tonPlinnMelanie2.mid
I haven't managed to put some of those 1/4 tones in the key signature.
Some comments on the previous posts :
To make it short, I think too Buddha Buck's notation is the easiest
>Actually, I could suggest another notation: _#C, where # is a single >digit, means flatting C by that many eighth-tones. For finer control, >_##C, where ## is a pair of digits, means flattening C by that many >cents, or 100ths of a semitone. ^#C and ^##C have analogous >defintions, but sharpening instead.
>The note halfway between E and F could be represented as ^2E, ^50E, >_2F, >or _50F. F itself could be ^E, ^4E, ^0F, ^00F, F _8G, or __G (or, if >you really wanted, ^^^D).
I only suggest something else in addition. It can be somehow misleading (it could be the same as %%MIDI ratio n m ), but I know some oriental music (persian music for ex.) can have variants in 1/4 tone, it's not a fixed 1/4 tone. It can be for ex. 45% or 35% of a half-tone, that depends of some scales and various parameters I don't really know (I've just find something about it http://users.rcn.com/christopherchapman/persianintervals.html). If it appears also in some other trad. music, it could be interesting to allow to define this ratio in the header, and then use a general 1/4 tone definition for the notation in a tune, ex ^2G it'd be quicker to write than ^35G if we can define earlier that the ratio is 35th of a semitone. This definition could be for ex :
%%quartertone [note] [ratio for flat] [ration for sharp]
(I suggest this %% notation since there are not that many letters left, and %% notation is more readable)
So the previous example could be :
X:1 T:Daramad of Shur L:1/8 Q:1/4=135 M:no K:C %%quartertone B 35 50 %%quartertone E 42 55 d _2e g f _2e d c _B A G A d2 {c}_B2 {A}G2 | G A c _B A G F _2E D _2 E F G A c {_B} A2 {G} F4 | FFF A2 G2 {F}_2EEE G2 F2 {_2 E } DDDF2 _2E2 |
it'd mean _2B = _35B and ^2B = ^50B (real 1/4 tone) while _2E = _42E and ^2E (and ^2e as well etc.) = ^55E while default for example _2A would remain the same (50/50)
This way it's more intelligible to understand how the scale is constructed (we can see the particular notes in the header)
>Or, to be consistent with the rest of abc, we could just put a length >after an accidental. So _2/3A would be an A that is flatted 2/3 of a >semitone. Similarly ^1/2A, ^/2A and ^/A would be a note halfway >between A and ^A.
is also a good idea. Since I'm not a software developper, I wouldn't mind if all of those ideas would be included in the abc standard :) But maybe Buddha Buck's notation would be enough.
>1. The step size should be defined in a special field in analogy to the >default fraction specified in the L: field (as Irwin Oppenheim >suggested)
which fields are left ? Since some software have already used them, a %% notation could be easier.
>2. _# and _## resp. ^# and ^## should denote step sizes in respect to >the default fraction
yes
>3. _### or ^### should denote deviations in cent (with a leading 0). >Example: ^098A.
I think it's a good idea too, I've heard of cents too in persian music, but I don't know much about this.
>These deviations should be printed above the notes (without leading 0) >just like chord symbols (this is standard in some microtonal >literature).
good idea too, if it's an option
>Nevertheless, it would be nice to see whether or not there could some >agreement in the abc community on microtonal notation.
I think it's the main thing that lacks in abc to be fully complete.
>Wouldn't a resolution of an 1/8th note be sufficient >for musical notation?
maybe for most of them, but not for all kind of musics (are there also 1/50 tones in for ex. chineese or japaneese music ?) I see also from the software Scala this kind of ratio for persian music (and even those can differ from a tune to another tune) :
Persian Tar Scale, from Dariush Anooshfar, Internet Tuning List 2/10/94 17 ! 256/243 27/25 9/8 32/27 243/200 81/64 4/3 25/18 36/25 3/2 128/81 81/50 27/16 16/9 729/400 243/128 2/1
>How do these special symbols (^1 ^2 >^3 ^5 ^6 and maybe ^7) look---do you have an example? >How do they sound---are it exact eighth-tones?
I've spent some time on internet to find some, I enjoyed my tour (especially on http://www.microtonal.org/music.html), but so far I've seen nothing related to music with notes and bars, like we know it. Some clues here ? http://www.microtonal.co.uk/notakey.htm There is also this software that handle microtones : http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/ It looks powerfull and interesting
Sorry, it was a too long post...
Eric.
___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Subj: [abcusers] RE : quarter-tones with abc in abc2midi and abcm2ps Date: 10/23/02 6:08:20 PM GMT Daylight Time From: eforgeot@yahoo.fr (Forgeot Eric) Sender: owner-abcusers@argyll.wisemagic.com Reply-to: abcusers@argyll.wisemagic.com To: abcusers@argyll.wisemagic.com
About his quartertone notation, I managed to use some postscript fonts for using in Abcm2ps. I've made also an equivalence for western music, like the one found in some bretonian songs (I found it in a CD)
I've upload a pdf with the result if some may be interested : anamnese.online.fr/abc/quartertone.pdf
the midifile of the scales are :
anamnese.online.fr/abc/midi_quartert.zip
I think it sounds rather bad, not close to the original music (maybe because it uses the pitchbend function). I'll seek further if it's possible to do something better.
> using timidity to play the midi file, >then you can reset the temperament to contain quartertone >intervals.
Thanks for the tips. Timidity could be usefull then if I can totally customize the temperament (not only use quarter-tones).
In fact Persian music can be simplified by using quarter-tones, but in practice quarter-tones are not used, and the pitch difference between 2 notes are dependent of the "modes" : for example seekers made experiences and noticed the traditional musicians in practice used for a "mode" 33 "savars" between B and c, and for an other 26.5 savars between B and c (here the savar is 1/50 of the occidental tone, so 26.5 would be very close to our B, but 33 would be for 2/3 tone) I don't know much about all this, I'm still learning)
>I would guess it needs to be sent an event to put things back to >normal, otherwise MIDI would assume that the pitch is still bent for >successive notes.
yes, that's why I was forced to "cheat" in the code by adding those !=! (or !normal!) after the note to reset the pitchbend. I'd really like to find a solution to get rid of them.
>I don't know if http://home.planet.nl/~roosp/mt_pitch.html is right or not >Sorry if it turns out I'm being stupid, only trying to help and understand.
thank you ! I don't think this was a stupid answer at all ! :)
>I'm not really a programmer (though I can read a tiny bit of C) My real
it's exactly the same for me : I can read and make some small changes, but can't rewrite all or add something new in the sources.
>The problem with using midi pitchbend is that the number which represents >the amount of pitch change is not standardised
oh, it's usefull to know then. I'll do some further comparisons to know more about it, and if it can be faultly to use the pitchbend for this purpose then. But if it turns to be standardized at least on the soundcard, I think it's enough. Maybe a "finetune" change would be better, if it's possible (but I can't find it in abc2midi source code). I think I should study more closely the midi standard.
About the postscript definition (for using with abcm2ps), here are them :