The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #71137   Message #1215709
Posted By: Grab
28-Jun-04 - 03:15 PM
Thread Name: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
CarolC, you say "It is caused by men."

Let's be more specific here. Honour killing is caused by men coming from exclusively Muslim societies. This is not to indict the Muslim religion or to say that all Muslims believe in this; rather, it is saying that men from particular backgrounds around the world believe in honour killings, and they happen to be in a society where Islam is the major religion. The religion is the excuse for the society's actions, not the other way around.

Please understand, this is NOT a criticism of Palestinian society because of what it is, because it is Palestinian, or Muslim, or Arab. It is a criticism of Palestinian society because of what it DOES. It is also not a criticism of men or women, since it is not uncommon that women (particularly older women) support the status quo (to go off-topic for a moment, genital mutilation is mandated and administered by women to women). Sometimes the women commit these acts themselves - the Indian government has made it a criminal act for women to throw themselves on their husband's funeral pyre, but it does still happen, and at no-one's volition but that woman's.

Honour killing is not a global problem in the sense that all nations commit it - you will have to try *very* hard to find an honour killing amongst indigenous Europeans, or amongst Americans whose families have been in the country for several generations. But it certainly *is* a global problem in the sense that there are a number of separate societies in which honour killings are tolerated, some of them Muslim, some of them not. The base problem in all of them, I agree, is the same though - women are not valued as people.

The path for all these societies to realise that failing and correct it will undoubtedly take time, and it will take work by the rest of the world which does believe in women's rights. What you say you don't accept though is that since every society is different, the solution for each will undoubtedly be different. I really can't see how you've reached that conclusion. In Africa, for example, the biggest problem is lack of education, so charities are trying to foster attention to basic human and gender rights at the same time as educating the people (including teaching women things like birth control to enable them to control their own destinies). Breaking the cycle in Africa could be as simple as making women well-educated so they are a valued resource in the community. India, Palestine, Saudi Arabia and so on have plenty of opportunities for education though, but they have an entrenched, wealthy, patriarchal society which prevents criticism of the leaders. But each of these is different again: India is relatively open to new ideas, and in any case is multicultural so Muslim women can see how Hindi women behave and see that submission isn't compulsory; Palestine is under siege from Israel, and women's rights are there considered a secondary issue to having any human rights at all; and Saudi has all the oil so no Western country can criticise without being threatened with their energy supply being cut off. A "global" approach with the US/UN/Britain/whoever dictating policy by force of arms or money is doomed to fail; the women on the ground whose organisations you link to are getting on with changing their little corner of society, and will likely succeed. Your "global" approach is, to use your own words, patriarchal (did you mean patronising?), pays no heed to the actual experiences of these women, and quite simply is exactly what you yourself are railing against here.

You say that you don't see honour killings (or any other form of abuse) being committed by a particular man; rather you see it as typical of the acts of men in oppressing women. I'm sorry, but I can't read that first paragraph of your last post without interpreting it as saying "all men are rapists and wife-beaters" - it really is stereotyping the male gender that offensively. I don't deny that some men are rapists and abusers, and as a man, I find the idea that men would do this to women nothing short of disgusting. I don't necessarily agree with Sandi in wanting them killed, but certainly more severely dealt with by the law than currently. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I'm afraid I get upset when I see a post implying that as a man, I'm automatically an abuser...

I also find your post offensive because it implies that no man can feel the same level of sympathy for oppressed women as you do, just because you are a woman. Should I also argue that you have no right to be horrified by the hostages paraded on TV, because they are men, and therefore you cannot understand the feeling of powerlessness, of shame at having to do things you hate to save yourself pain, of terror at knowing these people can do what they like to you? Of course not - these are human beings, and therefore we should both be repelled by the actions of those people. I'm a great supporter of gender equality, and the word "equality" kind of gives away what the meaning should be...

Carol, this is not a post dismissing women's rights, Islamic rights, Palestinian rights, or anything else. It is, very specifically, a post aimed at addressing the issues you've raised with regard to your own opinions. I agree with Bruce - this issue is far too serious for it to be misrepresented in the way you have done.

Graham.