Time to add me own two-penn'orth !

Carol it's good you started this thread. Those bugbears beloved of us old lags as well as aspiring newcomers to the SAR scene whether performers or listeners.

Worst of all I think is them that know it's their turn next, that faff about (right on there Sooz!) stumbling over everyone to reach for (or borrow) guitar/other instrument, then spend ages tuning up and/or recounting some tedious anecdote to cover their ineptitude in tuning. All of which uses up time in a crowded SAR and can deprive other singers of that much needed extra song. I don't feel like wasting that all too precious time. That's why I gave up playing guitar in public a couple of years ago and stick to unaccompanied singing. Sold it off to the lass's ex, went straight out and treated meself to a stack of Carthy CD's. Good deal that I thought.

Agree with you on the Moment of Glory folks too Rhiannon. Really infuriates that. Tho to be fair there's been times when I've seen that same impression can be wrongly given by say a festival steward or other helper who's waited patiently for his/her turn to come round then had to dash off after their song to be on duty at the campsite or other remote place.

Big "no-no's" too for me are a SAR starting late. Many a time I turn up for an advertised start time and nowt happens till the leader decrees a "quorum". Worst cases nearly an hour out of an allotted two and a half'll go by in idel chat, no wonder folks get peed off and leave.

As for SAR needing leader/s, well it can work both ways. Non-led SARs might so easily turn into a "dive in or duck out" where the less confident will lose out to the louder or more dominant – not always a good thing. But a fair leader can move things on with firm or gentle pressure and work wonders. My ideal rules be – no favouritism, no primadonnas, and keep things moving! A bit of irreverent fun can help too, but it needs to be kept in check. MCFat's list of "respected" leaders is a reliable guide, I've always rated Guest Padgett and Ken Johnson highly in that regard too, and he's right it ain't as easy as it sounds, but as they all say there's others – Geoff Miller, Malc Gurnham, Dave K, Eric P, Mick Pearce all spring to mind – who I've found make the best of what can be such a hit and miss event. And course it depends on who turns up I agree.

Sorry Nutty I been going to Cleckheaton for years now but I too found Cleck disappointing this year, at least the SAR's. (Tho' the booked guests were all tremendous I hastily add!) I'd endorse the Wickham landlord's support, he's a great bloke but he's saddled with a troublesome venue. Of which Carol's experience was sadly typical. If you followed Brid Widder's advice and "just move on through til you find one that suits", then you end up not getting to do a song in any of them I find. Oh and I turned up there at just after half past eight Sunday eve to find the entire pub bereft of folkies (but programme advertised a SAR). And almost no punters got a look in at the Sunday Sing this year either.

Which brings me to the last bit – someone asked why have SARs at all? Well there's no substitute for the process of singing a song out is there? However much you sing it in the car, at home, in the bath, cooking the dinner, walking the dog, word perfect maybe. You need to sing it out in front of an audience, of four or forty, and only then will you know whether it works. For all us nonprofessional singers it's simply our only chance.

So dont lets treat SARs as the poor relation, they've an important role to play in any festival.

Old money roolz OK!
M