Well said, John Hardly.

However, in my experience in this particular forum (and I participate in other much better moderated forums than this one), the responders are a worse problem than the original flamers and trolls. IMO, the forum owner and his proxies (ie Joe Offer & the clones) are the true guilty party here. They are the only ones with the power to change the atmosphere in the forum through forum moderation. Those who post here as members and guests simply don't have that power. So the whole argument of self-control is misleading and manipulative. It rewards the bad behavior of the "in group" while demonizing guests, all in a ploy to make people not notice the man behind the curtain who claims to be the Great and Powerful Oz.

No matter how much or often the thinking is reinforced by the forum authorities here that guests are the problem, it has always been the members that have refused to get in line and behave decently, and the forum owner and moderators who have refused to do the job of judicious moderation of those members. That is the dynamic that has dragged this place down into the gutter it has become--protecting and allowing people like Martin Gibson to keep posting here, and protecting and allowing the members to respond to posters like him angrily, just to prove how right on they are in "defending the forum" or "pointing out what a jerk he is" etc ad nauseum.

In any other reasonably moderated forum, people like Martin Gibson are simply cut off, along with stupid and idiotic "angry response" posts by people with anger issues (like Big Mick).

Of course, the hordes will come crashing in here to flame my post now, because I've named names and criticized the forum owner and his authoritarian proxies. So be it.