BBC R4 'Today' - Monday 29 August 2005 - 7.19-7.25am

Two-in-a-bar: new licence - more cost - less live music

EDWARD STOURTON: ... the time's 19 minutes past 7. The Conservatives are accusing the government of ignoring warnings from their own advisers about what the new Licensing Act will mean for small venues. Shadow culture secretary Theresa May has told this programme that the minsiter responsible, James Purnell, tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes by repeatedly saying the new legislation would simplify the system and cost small venues less. But minutes released in the spring by the Live Music Forum, which advises the government, expressed concerns about the application process and lawyers' expenses. Nicola Stanbridge reports.

[jazz guitar plays]

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: The Gardeners' Arms in south London hasn't needed a public entertainment licence to put on up to two musicians, like this duo 'Monkfish', using what is known as the 'two in a bar rule'. But under the new Licensing Act it does. So, landlord Chris Compton filled in his forms by the August 6th deadline, he says costly and complex, and to no avail.

CHRIS COMPTON: There's a cost to admin etc etc. To put an advert in the paper which is in excess of three to four hundred pounds, take advice from lawyers, and have done to actually get the procedure working and then we had to take a lawyer then to the council.

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: So sub total how much have you spent?

CHRIS COMPTON: £2,500. We've got less now than we started with under the old licensing laws. We got turned down on the 12 o'clock extension, but we've always been able to have 'two in a bar' as regards music. We've now been refused that 'two in the bar' unless we put a sound limiter in which will cost us in excess of another £2,000 on top of the additional cost of licensing to have live music.

[music fades]

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: But the new Licensing Act has been consistently described by the minister responsible, James Purnell, as less costly and 'easier'.

JAMES PURNELL [recorded clip from Today 29 June 2005]: Lots of pubs who wanted to play music before if they went to their local authority were finding that they were having unreasonable conditions and they were being charged thousands of pounds. Now as long as they tick the box which says we want to put on an entertainment, they won't have to pay any more and it is a much much easier system.

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: Now Minutes from May this year, just released by the Live Music Forum, the government advisory group, reveal that the Department for Culture Media and Sport was warned that smaller venues were having problems getting their applications in.

VOICE READS: 'Agenda Item 5: Forum members were concerned about the low rates of applications received to date, as outlined in a report from the Local Government Association. Smaller venues were finding the application process complex and expensive. The Department for Culture Media and Sport recognised these concerned and were working hard to target the industry.

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: But the Conservatives' culture secretary Theresa May says the government ignored warnings.

THERESA MAY: These minutes are extremely important. We see James Purnell, the minister, consistently er saying to people that the process was easier, that it was cheaper, er, and that all it was was a matter of filling in a few boxes. I think it is very serious that the minister has given the public a completely misleading impression of this particular piece of law. It appears now from these minutes his department has known that it was much more complex than that. It was much more costly. Frankly he has been trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: The lawyer Piers Warne from leading licensing solicitors Joelson Wilson describes how the government has underestimated costs and complexities for smaller venues.

PIERS WARNE: Just even if they do it on their own, fees for drawing up plans have got to be somewhere around £400 to £800, and from what I've heard through the industry, advertising the application for a variation could be up to £600. And there's the additional costs of obtaining certification, possibly £2,000 if you are instructing solicitors. And that doesn't include obviously if you then have to go to a hearing, or actually deal with representations, so the costs could certainly spiral I see up to £5,000. And more, obviously, if we're having to appeal decisions that the committees are making. The fee reviews at the moment are actually going ahead and inevitably I think it means a rise in fees.

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: Tory culture secretary Theresa May backs this position.

THERESA MAY: Well I fear that there will be more complexities in the future and increasing costs. We already know that many people are finding that when they renew their licence each year it's going to cost them more than it has done in the past. The minister has ignored not only the Live Music Forum and the, er, the publicans and the industry generally, he's ignoring village halls up and down the country. Everybody who's been raising their voice against this has simply been brushed to one side in this rather patronising manner by the minister. And he uses this phrase constantly about 'box ticking' and how easy these forms are.

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: The Department for Culture Media and Sport were unable to put anyone forward to be interviewed on this subject. Instead in a statement they said:

VOICE READS: 'The minutes show that DCMS shared concerns about the low level of applications back in May when the meeting in question took place. A publicity campaign was launched to address the problem and we estimate that 82% of applications are now in. The minister has always acknowledged that the new licensing application process may seem daunting to some people. We estimate that overall the industry will save around £2billion over the next ten years as a result of the reforms.'

NICOLA STANBRIDGE: But for the Gardeners' Arms, landlord Chris Compton goes from paying £10 a year to just under £300 a year for his new licence. A process that's possibly brought about the end of live music in his pub.

[background jazz guitar]

CHRIS COMPTON: At this moment in time we'll trade on without the live music. But it will hamper our business. I think at the end of the day the licensing law just is an ass, and it hasn't taken into account the old traditions, i.e. the musicians. And what are they gonna do - 'two in a bar' - they're gonna be, they're gonna be crucified. I think that, er, the government generally didn't listen to us in the industry. The government did not listen to us at all.

[music ends]

JIM NAUGHTIE: Nicola Stanbridge at the Gardners' Arms in south west London. 25 past 7 and...

ENDS