The following was broadcast om West Country live 17 October 2001. The law has now been changed. Will the Local Authority still insist "3 people playing in a pub is a safety hazard"?


Intro

Three people playing in a pub counts as a performance and needs a special licence. But the same pub can attract lots of people with a big screen TV and not need a special licence.The law was drawn up hundreds of years ago and many musicians say its time it was changed

THREE'S A CROWD
Mary Hardiman-Jones
It's a welcome part of the pub scene all over England and Ireland. An informal session with a couple of musicians playing while others enjoy a pint or a pasty. Fine – But if a third or forth musician joins in, you are in a different ballgame.

Peter Gilmour. Weymouth and Portland Borough Council.

If there are more than two people gathered to have a performance in terms of music, then they are required to have a Public Entertainment Licence.
Now the legislation is hundreds of years old. I've no doubt like most of the legislation in this country, it is well past its sell-bye date. In terms of that it requires a review. But that is the legislation we have to operate under.

Mary Hardiman-Jones
And that applies to other public places, even those without a liquor licence.

Roger Gall. Musician
If three members of the public, on a regular basis sang 'God Save The Queen', they would be classed as performers and would be illegal in premises without a Public Entertainment Licence. If members of the W.I. were to sing 'Jerusalem', it would be exactly the same.

Mary Hardiman-Jones
That licence could cost anything from £200 to £4,000. The 'two in the bar' rule has been challenged all over the country but musicians at this Portland pub have campaigned more widely than most

Roger Gall
When I made this public on the internet, because we can do this now, I managed to get quite a lot of people, I think about 25, that the council counted. Mainly from the USA, who wrote in and said that they were not going to come to where a Local Authority had this oppressive view to their traditional activities.

Peter Gilmour
We have had a number of emails to us from people in America. And I have to say that when I explained to them just how active we are in supporting the arts in Weymouth, when I tell them about the folk festival we are having and the Millennium festival where we'd 40.000 people on the beach. They turn round and say, well done Weymouth, we will actually think about coming to have a look at Weymouth when they get here.

Mary Hardiman-Jones
Until the law is changed, the Local Authority will insist 3 people playing in a pub is a safety hazard.

Brian Flynn. Licensee of the Cove House Inn.
Last year, last December we started with local musicians, who came basically to do a jam session on Thursday nights. Just to entertain themselves basically. When we advertised that, I received a visit from the council, saying that this was actually classed as a musical event, even though there was no money involved. Just doing what they wanted, when they wanted. I was just given a warning and had another visit about a month later saying, get a Public Entertainment Licence, stop the activity or be prosecuted.

Mary Hardiman-Jones
That could mean a £20,000 fine or six months in prison. So this landlord applied for a licence in June and is still waiting.

Brian Flynn. Licensee of the Cove House Inn.
This is a public house, it has to be safe otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to operate. The police, fire brigade, council health people and the environmental health officer, they all visit. They all inspect and obviously if the place wasn't safe they would close it

Peter Gilmour
If an incident did occur an accident and somebody was injured or hurt or killed whatever, you'd be the first people to say to me, you are responsible for enforcing that legislation, why didn't you do it?

Mary Hardiman-Jones

Even a bishop in the House of Lords recently questioned this law and the government, in a White Paper did promise to review it. That would mean reforming the whole of licensing legislation. In the meantime, council's will have to uphold the law and musicians will be discouraged from playing. Unless of course it's solo or a duet.


Live studio interview with Julian Howe. Branch Secretary of Torbay Musicians' Union.
Q ….Have you already been campaigning about this 'two in a bar rule'?

A…..Oh very much so, on a National level especially with other people helping us. We are making a break-though as the last few years we have been able to get to the seat of Government, speak to people and explain the dificulties the existing legislation causes us.

Q…..How important do you think it is to have live music in a pub, for the community and even for the culture?

A…..Not just pubs, the hotels and almost anywhere. It is harmful what is happening now. Only 5% of licensed premises have Public Entertainment Licenses. I really does restrict our ability to perform, not to mention to earn a few bob. A recent Home Office circular did explain how they felt the importance of public entertainment was to a central role in tourism.

Q…..What about Karoke, do you need a licence for that?

A….Yes you do. Strictly speaking, according to the law you should have one for a juke box in a café, but they seem to turn a blind eye to that one. Fortunately some people have had to apply for a licence for one (karoke), and this has enabled bands to go in as well, so there is a little bit of benefit from that.

Q…..Are all councils as strict at enforcing these laws?

A…..There are extremes. For 25 years I worked in a public utility and I know how inconsistent people can be. We have an etreme in Bristol where, not just one person can play but if they play with a backing track, these count as a performer. That is about as crazy as one can get. There are some inconsistencies, I think this is where we are getting through and getting some action at government level. The most inconsistent element is the cost of the licence.

Ends.