Good points McGrath. Those singers I find most irritating aren't necessarily those without classical training but those who think that they don't need to spend any time THINKING about their singing. I do wince sometimes if I hear somebody consistently doing something that I feel must be painful, screeching like the lead in AC/DC for instance. Good fiddlers, like good violinists, need to practice and learn what makes music and expresses the song and what is just a mindless exercise in running through the necessary notes. I am not a fan of country and western singers singing traditional, usually English, christmas carols: singing through your nose just doesn't sound good there although its highly approriate in country and western songs where an Anglican hoot would be awful. Generally speaking a singer with training can learn to sing in a greater variety of styles if he or she wishes to than somebody who isn't trained.