"It is so difficult in discussions like this that last for years ..in different formats with different hot buttons..to keep focus on specific points and precise definitions and show each other what we mean and how we mean it without getting away from neutral, non-judgemental bantering and verging on personal criticism." Bill D

Indeed. If and when we keep the discussion focused on experiences or the lack of them (Notice that I call it a "lack"! *G*), and beliefs and doubts and skepticisms and openness (See? I can't help it!) it's fun as well as informational. I enjoy it a lot.

But back to the discussion: A few years back I became aware that when two people or 50 people are looking at something, they are not necessarily seeing the same thing. And they may never know it. How often does one describe what one is seeing?