As someone who does astrology, I'm really not sure at all if it's worth entering the fray, but just a few random comments.

A philosophy tutor of mine once said that the views of anyone who has not studied the subject they are discussing can be pretty safely discounted as of no value.

Autolycos's law of astrological ignorance states that anyone who is a fierce adverse critic of astrology is certain never to have made any kind of serious study of it.

Most of the post here show the posters speak of that which they know not. All their over-familiar views have been dealt with repeatedly in reputable astrological works. Please return when you made some decent examination of astrology - the material is easily available.

Of course most of the posters are not going to - that's your right and priviledge, as is freedom of expression. However that doesn't give weight or add weight to your views. As it happens.

Real astrologers, incidentally, don't predict in the ways you seem to be demanding. Prediction is not the heart of the subject. Nor is planetary influence. The weltanschauung of astrology is somewhat different from standard western science.

It might be worth pointing out that, amazingly enough, science is and has often had fierce arguments, some still unresolved. A site worth looking at is www.edge.org/q2005/q05_print.html, where there are many contributions from scientists on the question "What do you believe even though you can't prove it?". And for an interesting discussion about how science has often progrssed in its history by some decidedly dodgy and not very rational procedures, se Pauk Feyerabnd's "Against Method".

I sometimes use astrology therapeutically, as did Jung (he saw it as a useful short-cut. I do so because astrology is far more complicated than your notions of prediction allow. Proper astrologers these days do not say your horoscope lays out what will just happen. That's because they think we have free will. A good analogy. Your horoscope, which details your planets in their signs,houses and relationships to each other etc.etc., is THE HAND YOU WERE DEALT. However, you have free will, which is about HOW YOU PLAY YOUR HAND.

To those interested, having Gemini rising may have something to do with my wordiness;a Libran Moon has some connection with my wish for level-headedness, and fairness in this debate (NO Shambles, but anger anyway); a Taurean Mars means a tough fighter; and Cancer Sun/Libran Moon could lead me not to bother and retire in despair to the sofa after a while if there is no fairness in the debate, but MERE anger or vituperation.

Yes, I'm aware I started angry - more frustrated, really, at prejudice (pre - before;judice - judging =   i.e. like delivering the judgment at the BEGINNING of the trial).

I'm up for open-minded debate. Otherwise, it'll be Gordon Allport's "The Nature of Prejudice" at 3769 paces.

Or we could talk about something else. Not obsessive, me.

That's it for now,I'm off to bed. 'night all.

Ivor