I shouldn't have left it so long without replying, as there are a lot of points I now need to contribute to ... !

First, Bob: I'm sorry if I sounded a bit 'short' in a previous post. There are a lot of 'statements' about Welsh music which are accepted without a question but are pretty superficial, and sometimes I don't have the energy to put the other point of view, or the fuller point of view. Anyhow, sorry.

I also have a problem with the concept of 'revival' because, although the Welsh did participate in that whole scene with vim and vigour, there was a lot of unbroken tradition going on here. Jerry mentions Ar Log; the Roberts brothers were two of the founders (Gwyndaf and Dafydd?) and they had learned their songs in the community, and their harp playing from the infamous Nancy Richards, who was a full blown 'source musician' or 'tradition bearer'. Apart from the Robertses, she also taught Robin Huw Bowen (currently on tour in the USA), and Robin was also taught by Eldra Jarmain, a gypsy harper, so another side of the Welsh tradition. So, are Gwyndaf, Dafydd and Robin 'revivalists'? I wouldn't say so.

Similarly, Arfon Gwilym is a singer who was a member of Cilmeri in the '70s and might be thought of as a 'revivalist'. But Arfon is from a long line of singers from the Bala area and although he has competed in the Eisteddfodau, he's never 'gone over to the dark side' of pseudo classical song styling.

Ah, and 'song styling': I hate what a lot of Welsh singers (mostly in the Eisteddfod tradition) do to lovely little innocent songs. That is, try to turn them into Art Songs. Yuk. BUT you can err on the other side too. Something isn't 'more authentic' if it sounds hoarse and nasal. I asked an expert friend of mine about 'authentic' Welsh sound and she felt that the Welsh voice had a very lyrical quality and clear sound. She thought that Heather Jones or even Mary Hopkins were good examples of female singers.

Siwsi George was great and stayed true to her own accent. I don't think I'd say that she was 'less' authentic just because she was one generation along from the people from whom she learned her songs. One of her mentors recorded a huge amount of his repetoire in the 60s and 4 LPs are now available on one 2CD set: "Mered: 50 traditional Welsh folk-songs" You may listen to this and think, "that's not what we mean" but Mered is authentic, grass-roots (although he eventually earned a PhD and was head of Lt. Ents at BBC Wales at one point) and a real tradition bearer. Sorry, but he has a sweet, soft voice and is still alive so maybe doesn't meet the criteria ... Oh - he lived in Mass. while working on his PhD and some of this stuff is available thanks to the Moe Asch network that sought out such music.

Surreysinger, I've been contacted by the SEFAN organizer and have made a few suggestions. One fear I expressed is what happens when professional performers 'take an interest' in traditional community rites. One problem is that they only get interested because it's their newest obsession, not because they have a deep interest in the community. And then the community is given to think that it can only be done 'right' by professionals so stop doing it themselves. The commoditization of culture. sigh.

RichD, there are a lot of recordings of source singers but most are only available to hear if you go to the Folk Museum in St Fagan's, Mon - Fri. As it happens, I was there Friday making lists of songs from Pembrokeshire for a project we're doing down there; we got as far as "M" in the file cards and have about 30 tracks which we need to listen to so far. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I think Dr Mary Davies was the first person to use the phonograph to make field recordings in Britain, and that, in Wales. She new Thomas Edison and he sent her one. Must have scared the crofters witless when this Grande Dame showed up in their cottages demanding that they sing into the machine ...

St Fagans HAS put out 2 recordings, which are now available on one combined CD from Sain: PLYGAIN CAROL SINGING / STABLE-LOFFT SONGS
CAROLAU PLYGAIN / CANEUON LLOFFT STABAL (SCD2389) This is just the sort of thing that I think most of you mean by 'traditional' as opposed to 'revival'.

Then again, there are CDs of singers who, since the '70s maybe, would be considered embarassingly old fashioned and yet should be seen as part of the continuum. I would bet, too, that 'folkies' would disapprove of their repetoire: old chestnuts, sentimental stuff, 'Mothers Bible' lyrics, etc. with the occasional hymn and folk song thrown in.

In that category, I would suggest Bob Roberts Tairfelin, Richie Thomas (I think there's a CD, "Hen Rebel fel Fi") or Jac a Wil (two brothers).

A word about instrumental: there's the unbroken tradition of harp playing APART from the classical (although the classicists wouldn't think the folk was 'important') and you can access that for starters with the CD "Nancy Richards" (Sain SCD2382) and move it forward through artists like Robin Huw Bowen, Llio Silyn and Rhes Ganol. There are definitely 'broken' traditions which are being recreated, and in this category you get bagpipes and hornpipes (ref: anything by Ceri Rhys Matthews) and crwth (ref: anything by Cass Meurig or Bragod). Bragod put out an impressive CD/booklet a couple of years ago, "Kaingk" (www.bragod.com), which elaborates on Bob Evans' research on the crwth. I must say that I, and others, find Bob's ideas to be absolutely delightful, but off-base. Still, it 'informs the debate', as the academics might put it.

I've lost track. Not sure if I'm making sense now. So I'm finishing with that. There are enough names above for you to be getting on with. And I'm just pleased that we still have music going on in Wales which traces back a very long long way.

sian