Of course there is HUGE difference, but you would not recognize that I acknowledge that. You are completely wrong when you say that I made excuses for Martin. Dead wrong. I pointed out that others exhibited the same behavior patterns that he did. Being a sexist, racist isn't the only way to be an ass. What you and others have shown is that is okay to behave in an obnoxious way until you cross a certain line. My arguement is that the "line" is not justification of the behavior period. This is not "moral relativism", this is reason.   You refuse to comprehend what I was saying when I made that remark Martin Gibson, yet you continue to exhibit exactly the tendancies that I was trying to explain.

I apologize to everyone else for wasting time with this discussion. I'm not sorry to see Martin gone, for the most part the conversations are civil, but I am still not sure I like the new country club. Same problems, different faces?