No Keith I would never suggest anybody bugger off. That would be arrogant.

I just think the starting points in these political threads, are probably emotional allegiances.

Its not a lack of knowledge or cerebration that makes us what we are. take Heydrich, probably a better fiddle player than anybody on mudcat - all the tags of civilisation, probably better table manners - but he was a Nazi.

Lets face it there are unpalatable truths about all our lives, probably about all our beliefs, almost certainly about all our relationships.

Whacking someone over the head with an unpalatable or distessing fact isn't going to persuade them one iota.

As for our good friend DS. And he is genuinely terrific guy in many ways. do you really think that someone who chooses a name like Divis Sweeney isn't aware of the fact that there are differing points of view when it comes to Irish politics. Do you really think that someone living Ireland wouldn't know that a lot of people fought for England in the war - and moreover that their motivations were pretty unselfish.

look at all the shit things our country has stood for - that doesn't make us bad people. we perhaps accept some degree of guilt. DS's emotional allegiances are to another cause - that's all I'm saying.

I bet there's bugger all about the IRA's bad points that haven't occurred to him. Reiterating them to him won't make him join the Young Conservatives and take out a subscription to Majesty.