Now that he's posted a cogent argument I understand Anglo's position; he fleshed out the problems I glossed and I can't disagree with most of his thesis. And I thank him for a reference to "English Country Gardens" which mentions William Kimber instead of Percy Grainger. This might have confused the academics at Melbourne Uni's Conservatorium (the Grainger museum is next door) if they'd been involved in the examination system as applied to folk music.

Having experienced a music teacher similar to the one described as a battleaxe I share Guest Russ' bafflement at some of the propositions above and heartily endorse GregB's "I maintain that "having" to do something is the best way of taking all of the joy out of it. And turning a pastime into a competition comes a close second." Even so, for some situations such things can have benefits. The Kapunda festival in South Australia started in the mid-late 70s and was modelled on the Irish competitions. Tim Whelan played tin whistle and wanted to encourage others to play the music he'd grown up with in Ireland so he started classes in one of the folk pubs and, after a while, got the Kapunda Festival going as a competition for instrumentalists playing "Celtic" music. Australia being the sort of place it is, "Celtic" had to be rather inclusively defined and this meant that 'competition' occurred in a similarly inclusive context. While the competition part of the weekend was taken 'seriously', the sessions were where most of the action (and thus learning) occurred. On balance I think Kapunda's effect on the playing of instruments and traditional music was very positive. Sadly, Tim is no longer with us but his music is alive and well.

Captain Birdseye wrote "modern day educationalists and governments seem obsessed with the idea that education is just about getting a job" and this inability to differentiate clearly between "education' and 'training' is one of the nubs of the discussion. Even some Vice Chancellors (especially those who see themselves as extensions of government policy) seem unaware of the differences. Most of the current music teachers I've seen in operation appreciate that the major part of what they're doing with kids is best described as training and the best of them do it in a way that encourages the kids to become musically educated. My daughters are luckier than I in that they have good teachers of their instruments and (in the case of the daughter at high school) great music educators. Even so, I make sure their informal experience of music is extensive by taking them to Nariel and the National. I don't give a hoot whether or not they ever make a quid out of music (although their busking has been very profitable, experientially and financially) so long as they have a positive relationship with music as an activity with emotional, intellectual, social and historical components.

Captain Birdseye also wrote "we as musicians have all learnt that without practice we would not have got where we are". He's right about "practice" but too many confuse it with "Practice". I lean towartds Paolo Friere's notions of "praxis" as a personal preference but "horses for courses" applies. From other threads I learn that Captain Birdseye plays and teaches English concertina and, as an Anglo player, I've long wondered whether the two systems appeal to different temperaments. From their postings to this thread and the comment from Manitas at home I gather there is some history between Captain Birdseye and Anglo and am wary of being leadfooted on thin ice but my experience of concertina players is that those who prefer English or Duet keyboards are, as a group, much more comfortable with the written forms of music and that those who prefer Anglo keyboards are, again as a group, much more comfortable with aural transmission. There are spectacular exceptions (John Kirkpatrick's first record includes a Bach fugue as a poke in the eye to those who dismissed Anglo concers) but, if there is any substance to my perception, examinations in their playing wiil have a difficult time avoiding bias.

There was (maybe still "is") a player of English concertina in Australia who used to teach a lot and was very keen on the sort of approach used by many teachers of instruments used in (what we a pleased to call) classical music. This character commented (in my presence, to an audience mostly of folkies) "Folk music is next to the sewer!" and represented in an extreme form, the sort of attitude that many folkies have had to contend with from the wannabes rather than the real afficcianados.

From this and other threads I get the impression that Captain Birdseye is a real afficcanado and not at all like that Australian player. I also get the impression that he has a preference for aspects of formality in learning. And that this informs his interest in exploring the formalities of examinations or competitions as a way of lifting the profile of the music he loves. I wish him well but think that such an approach is unlikely to be as successful as his intentions deserve.

Cheers, Rowan