I get the point of your argument, john. I just disagree with it. And you get my point and disagree with it.

But I'm in full agreement that this thread isn't the best place to explore our disagreements. (Which is what discussions are for - clarifying differences, and perhaps identifying some common ground.) Maybe another thread sometime - I don't like carrying on discussion in PMs, a bit claustrophobic, shutting out the possibility of other people's points of view.
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Meanwhile the carnage carries on, and the latest horror is a grandmother, whose grandchild had been killed, who blew herself up as a suicide bomber. For me it reinforces the feeling that the only way out of this is going to be if the kind of non-violent alternative discussed earlier in this thread can start to divert people like that from this kind of futile and self-defeating action.