You are absolutely right Ron Davies, and the rest of you who subscibe to the inevitability of abandoned hope.

Demographically Iraq is composed of 26 million people of whom Shi'as make up 60%-65% and the Sunni's, that Ron Davies is so concerned about make up 32%-37%.

So let's follow the general concensus of this forum:

- US and MNF forces must pull out immediately

- Accept that Iraq will descend into civil war

- Insurgency problem will dissappear because by and large so will a very large proportion of the Sunni population of Iraq ( Hey Ron it's an absolute bastard when for the last 24 years you have been top dog and all of a sudden you have to descend to being content with the level of equality - But what the fuck it's called pay-back, richly deserved for tacitally supporting an insurrection that targets innocent supposedly fellow citizens - don't tell me Ron that you don't believe in cause and effect)

- Possibility that Iraq will disintegrate into two separate states one Kurdish and one Arabic Shia state. I have no problem with that, have you Ron? After all you left-wing, anti-war, anti-bush. anti-Blair types have been droning on about the borders of Iraq being artificially drawn by those evil bastard Brits for ages - this would seem a perfect time to put matters to rights - Perfect. At least in the future we will know who to fight and know that they have defined the boundaries. It also gives us a chance to eliminate the Turks from EU membership as we would probably have to fix their wagon when they attempt to have a go at the newly emergent Kurdistan, Iran might be involved in this stramash as well, but what the hell the more the merrier.

Now let's have a look at the good ol' US of A:

- Osama is still your enemy, he can appear in some form or other and publically declare to the world that he has defeated the major super-power in the world and that his intention is still aimed at destroying you.

- All future attacks will now take place within the United States of America, because your government and your military have got absolutely no credibility outside your own borders, having shown your propensity to "cut and run" in any given situation, your on-the ground intelligence stream will just dry up, no matter because since the days of Peanut Farmer Jimmy Carter you have only believed in electronically gathered intelligence.

- Your government no longer has the confidence to send US troops abroad, and those troops themselves will not go on what they see as being a fools errand. After all why go abroad and risk being killed when all those back home do not believe we should there in the first place, far better to stay at home and let the enemy come to you, than at least you have the comfort of fighting shoulder to shoulder alongside such stawlart believers of truth and justice as Ron Davies, Arne "Viking" Langsetmo and the redoubtable Bobert - frightening prospect, why indeed should Islam tremble, Arne and Ron on their own could bore them to death.

- Of course this will result in another of the dearly held beliefs of those on this forum - the creation of a drafted armed force to defend the United States of America, only problem is they won't defend you even if all the action takes place on your own doorstep.

Yes, listening to most contributers to this forum maybe it is time you all curled up and accepted the inevitable - I don't for one second thing that you will relish, or enjoy the result. You all take great pride in the past achievements of The US - great pity that none of you are prepared to fight to actually maintain those rights and freedoms against a person who has singularly identified you, your freedoms and your way of life as his target.