"If the US founders were to see the US (government) today. They would say thier principles were already lost."

Damn right they would!!! The first thing that those Founders, who scribed all that high moral stuff about equality and freedom", would notice is the fact that their slaves had been freed.

Agreed Ron Davies the concepts of "Truth and Justice" are completely foreign to most Arab States, particulary Iran, where both are dictated to the entire population by 12 Old Gits who occasionally gather together and agree as to what exactly constitutes "Truth and Justice" for that particular week.

"Your "payback" will result in permanent civil war--or total ethnic cleansing. Both obviously fine with you."

It might, it might not. Oh and remember Ron I am one of those wishing that the MNF troops stay to complete their task in both Iraq and in Afghanistan. You on the other hand are part of the crowd who would like nothing better than to see the MNF withdrawn in ignominy, all just to shout at Bush - "We told you so" - that is what it is all about for most on this forum - Please do not for one minute attempt to portray yourself as a person who gives a toss for the people of Iraq or the middle-east region as a whole - you don't, it's all about getting Bush.

Now as you want the troops withdrawn, and you don't think that the Iraqi Army is up to much. You believe that civil war, with it's almost inevitable period of ethnic cleansing would be the choice of the people living in Iraq? Well they were given the opportunity of living peacefully and chose different - their affair, not ours right? After all you don't want to do anything about it, so let'em get on with it, not worth the life of a single MNF soldier. I do not for one minute believe that it would be permanent - The French, Russians and Chinese would step in to protect their investments. The Sunni's of Anbar and Salahadin Provinces might have a bit of a shock, the Russians could show the Residents of Fallujah, Samarra and Ramadi television coverage of what they did to Grozny. It would be most enlightening for them.

I agree Ron it is a reasonable requirement that Sunnis should be able to trust the police. And it's about high time that the bulk of the residents of the predominatly Sunni Arab Provinces started getting behind the forces of law and order. Their choice entirely, support the insurgents and take the consequences, or provide proof positive that you are prepared to live peacefully in Iraq with exactly the same rights as anybody else.

"Some Sunnis are the equivalent of hardcore Nazis in 1945. Most are not." Then it is high time that those who are not started acting like Iraqi's first instead Arab Sunni's first Iraqi's second.