Ummmmm, not to harp on this one, mg.... But your perspective represents either the very small percentage of folks who grew up in poverty and somehow beat the odds or a more middle class perspective of how folks *ought* to be able to solve problems...

While this may have worked for you it is like speaking Greek to those who, like Barry, grew up in poverty...

No disrespect intended but you seem to be preachin' to folks who ain't got a clue... I'm sure you mean well but I don't think you quite get the disconnect...

I learned this lesson when I was about 20... Yeah, I came from a middle class family and inspite of my family's activism in the civil right movement there were some lessons I needed to learn... I was in my 3rd year in college and got hired By R-CAP (Richmond Community Action Program) and assigned to work in the Hillside housing project in south Richmond... Some of the stuff I did was more like case worker stuff but I also became involverd in NWRO (National Welfare Rights Organization) and organized a chapter in that housing project and did some other orgainizing with the anti-war movement and civil rights stuff and, well, these activities led me to bring both the Black Panthers and White Panthers to Richmond for some rallies and get-togethers...

It was at one of these get-togethers at the housing project with some real ***together*** White Panther folks and we had 'bout 40 folks packed into one apartment and they made their pitch and afterwards I said something that was meant to be halpful but came of as condescending and...

...this dude from the White Panthers took me aside and said, "Hey, man, yer talking *to* these people and not *with* them..."

I remember the feelings of utter embarassment... And, yeah, I was defensive... And, yeah, it took a few days for that lesson to set in but it set in like concrete... And it was the best lesson I can honestly say that came to me from the 60's...

Again, I mean no disrespect here, mg, but you can't preach to folks who haven't been exposed to what you may have been exposed to... Yeah, yer heart can be 100% pure, yer motives 100% pure but, bottom line, if you are to be effective, you can have all the great ideas in the world, yer gonna have jst take folks the way you find them...

I've mentioned something that an radical, young, black minster once told me and it goes like this "You can have sex with a gotilla but you are going to have to do it on the gorilla's terms..."

I don't know if this makes any sense, mg, but it is the cornerstone of being effective in any position where you are dealing with folks who grew up in poverty...

Again, I mean absolutlely no disrespect here...

Ummmmmm, I keep tryin' to get to that "downward mobilty" that Janie has talked about with a case study of one of my formed clients and I will get there but it seems that with this thread there seems to be a bit of "bringing up the rear" and that's okay... Hey, here we are pushing 120 posts and, as far as I can see, we haven't had any trolls jump in and try to mess stuff up so I think we're doin' purdy good... Even if it mean a little back tracking...

See... This post is a prime example of what that guy from the White Panthers was talking 'bout... Hey, ya' gotta take it as it comes and talk with folks...

Yeah, when this thread was started I kinda had an outline in mind of stuff I thought would be benefical and while I still have things I wnat to share, I'm just going to let the thread come to me and see where I can throw some stuff into the mix that will hopefully be informative and, even better, helpfull...

Bobert