The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #100075   Message #2003207
Posted By: greg stephens
21-Mar-07 - 12:44 PM
Thread Name: Do the Welsh have any Dances?
Subject: RE: Do the Welsh have any Dances?
Leenia: my reference to weird and pan-Celtic styles was nothing to do with time signatures. I was referring to the habit of some Welsh(and other "Celtic") musicians to make their traditional local tunes sound more Celtic by including Enya- or Clannad-isms, larding the line-up with low D whisles, bodhrans etc etc. This may make for interesting music, but it confuses people who trying to get a handle on what traditonal Welsh music might sound(or have sounded) like.
This national stuff I actually find increasingly confusing and largely irrelevant(to traditional music, not to modern politics).
    For example, I have recently been making music and dance with the inhabitants of a couple of north Shropshire pubs. One of them, on Whixhall Moss, must have been all of 500 yards from Wales, and the other not that much further. Now, the gypsies in both those pubs have not necessarily spent all their lives in the country in which the pubs were situated(England). Is it meaningful to classify gypsy music as English on the south side of the moss, and Welsh on the north?
    Sian in an earlier post refers to Welsh music from an MS book with 400 tunes in it. Now, from her remarks I guess she is referring to the MS labelled "John Thomas his book 1752". Now, this is certainly a Welsh tune book kept by a Welshman. Probably from north-east Wales(the arguments about this would be too convoluted for this thread). The book has been magnificently edited by Cass Meurig, and is a must-have item for anyone interested in trad music of the British Isles. But obviously(though that is a word to be very careful of!) a big majority of the tunes in the book are of probable English, Irish or Scottish origin; that is not a derogatory remark about Welsh music, most fiddlers are very eclectic about tunes. This merely shows that tunes move about, and are no respecter of national boundaries. So, John Thomas is a Welsh musician, and held up as an example of Welsh culture. Fair enough, but he lived close to the English border(as do all Welsh people, Wales is a small country). I have here on my desk photocopies of two "English" MS books from a similar era, from Whitchurch or thereabouts. The fiddlers concerned were called Jones and Hughes. Whitchurch is about 2 miles into England. So, we have Mr Thomas, the great white hope of Welsh fiddle and dance, living maybe five miles from Messrs Hughes and Thomas, prime examples of English traditional fiddlers. Now, these things need thinking carefully about. One book may end up being pored over by Welsh speaking scholars in Aberystwyth, the others may end up in London in C Sharp House or somewhere forming part of the English cultural heritage.
    Please note what am I saying and what I am not saying. I am not saying that all Welsh culture came from England(or the reverse). Neither am I saying that Welsh and English culture are the same thing: it is bleeding obvious they are hugely different. What I am saying is that they are hugely intertwined, especially on the borders. And that tricking out a modern English tune with a modern Welsh language title does not necessarily therby convert the tune into a bardic song from one of Arthur's minstrels formerly performed with a low D whistle and harp.
To declare any personal interest necessary: I am part Cornish and part Welsh, with a dash of English as well.