Please, Don. I am NOT blaming FDR for starting WWII!!! Jesus Murphy. If I were to assign blame for starting WWII, I would blame Adolf Hitler for it. He should have left Poland alone. Secondarily, I would blame the Japanese for a lengthy and totally irresponsible policy of engaging in aggression in East Asia, starting with their first incursions into Korea, expanding into war with China, invading mainland China, and finally attacking the USA, Britain and the Dutch East Indies. Thirdly, I would blame Mussolini, for various other illegal acts of aggression. THAT's who I blame for WWII, not FDR.

I am simply saying that FDR wanted very much to get the USA into that war ASAP, primarily to defeat Germany, and to do that he needed to somehow get Japan to attack the USA first because he had an isolationist Congress and public who did not want to get into any foreign war.

So FDR deliberately created a situation where the Japanese definitely would attack America, and he knew it, as did the American military...the only thing they weren't quite sure of (I would assume) was exactly how, where, and when the Japanese would make the initial attacks. They were expecting it to come anytime from late November '41. They knew the Phillipines would get hit for sure. They may not have been so sure about Hawaii.

I am fully aware that Kimmel never got the radar report, because it never got past a minor officer who thought it was a flight of B-17s from California. I was not implying that it was deliberately according to plan that that happened. It was simply a misjudgement by a minor officer.

I was saying, however, that Roosevelt needed a major provocation to get his public and Congress onside for getting into a world war...and he got it. This was very helpful to Roosevelt's overall gameplan.

I am not in any way opposed to Roosevelt's economic and social policies, I think he did a great job with the New Deal. I am not in principle opposed to him finding a way to go to war with Germany and Japan in '41, even if it involved pushing one of them into attacking first, because I think he basically did what needed to be done at the time.

I was simply raising examples of what may or may not be fortuitious when one wants to get one's public in a mood for war. My example was not meant as a heavy moral judgement against FDR.

In Bush's case, he also got his major provocation...but not by the armed forces of a foreign country! It was by a small secret group of conspirators (either foreign...or homegrown...or both), and it is totally illegitimate to attack any foreign country because of a criminal act by a small independently acting group or organization of conspirators.

Therefore I do make a heavy moral judgement against the Bush administration for attacking Afghanistan, and later Iraq. Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq have ever attacked the USA, and they should not have been attacked by the USA.

I was recounting the WWII story simply as an analogy on what governments can and may do to get a public in a war mood, that's all.

Don, I am a nut on WWII history. I never subscribed to any such silly myth such as the one you quote about Kimmel.

By the way, there's an interesting twist to the Japanese diplomatic mission in Washington on Dec 7. They had received a lengthy message from Tokyo, by wireless, which they were supposed to translate and give to the American ambassador, very shortly prior to the scheduled time of the first attacks hitting Pearl Harbor. It was in code. Their office staff had such a hard time transcribing the coded message that they were unable to deliver the message on time. They were only able to present it to the American ambassador after Pearl had already been hit. The message was essentially an ultimatum, amounting to a declaration of war. This would technically make the attack NOT a sneak attack (as the Japanese reasoned it). This was their idea of saving face. As it turned out, the Japanese ambassador was totally humiliated. He had failed to deliver the message on time, thus disgracing himself and his country. I'm not saying that this in any way justified the Japanese or excused what they did, I'm just saying it's an interesting insight into their complex notions of honor.

The Americans wouldn't have given a damn anyway if they'd got the ultimatum an hour or so before the attack or even a day before. ;-) They'd have been just as mad as ever about it.