I have come to the conclusion that people are talking about different things here sometimes. Diane will confirm that I am slow in cottoning on at times but I like to think I do get there eventualy:-)

There are clubs, Like Lewes etc. that are thriving, inclusive and generaly good places to be. There are also clubs which are dull, exclusive and, to the outsider, not at all fun to be in. I am very lucky in that I only attend 2 clubs on a regular basis, Swinton and Newcastle, both of which are in the former category. I did, at first, find it hard to believe that the other type of club does exist.

On reflection, however, I have been to clubs in the latter category. I was at one last year where the 'singers' sat in a very exclusive circle with reserved signs on the table. There was nowhere for an audience to sit within the mutual self praise society and it was not so much that others were not invited to sing but that any outsiders were purposely and very obvously excluded. The quality of acts was not that good but I think that can be forgiven sometimes if the majoroty are good and the club is fun anyway. This one failed on all counts.

I think Diane and others have already agreed that there are some good clubs. I think what this side of the debate is saying is that this type of club is in the minority. I did, as I have already said, find it hard to believe at first but, with no direct experience of anything but a handful of clubs, I must bow to greater experience. Maybe I have just been lucky.

The other side of the debate is centred on these good clubs and it cannot fail to. No-one in their right mind is going to stand up and say "Well my club is in all honestey, not very good." Are they? So all we get is the supporters of the clubs that are good in most, if not all, respects. Anyone fancy doing a count? How many clubs have been mentioned as being particulary good? A dozen or so? How many clubs are there in the country? A lot more!

I think supporters of the argument that folk clubs are no longer a good place to be have been, up to now, very restrained in that they have not mentioned clubs, residents or organisers of these poor clubs by name and for that they must be thanked. It has made it difficult for them to get their points across. Where examples of good clubs are seen as possitive things, examples of bad ones will look very negative. I do suspect however that those who are saying clubs, in the main, are poor, have the direct experience to provide us with 10 examples of a poor club to every one of a good one:-(

I, for one, will now look at my own club very criticaly and try to avoid the traps that have been pointed out throughout the thread. Lets leave it as Les's original intention was - A look at why good folk clubs are dwindling and lets make sure that we do try to keep improving the good while accepting that the bad will, and should, fall by the wayside. Let's not get too hung up on the 'Folk club' either. If, eventualy, the folk club is replaced with a 'live music showcase' or a 'beginers workshop' or a screaming heebeejeeby it doesn't matter. It is the music and community that is important, not the place.

Cheers

Dave