Bobert--

1) Any evidence of abolitionism in the South before 1861? From what I read, any abolitionist voices in the South were stifled. John Brown obviously does not fit as a Southern abolitionist--and look at the support he received in the South--even from slaves--who knew a losing campaign when they saw it.   Also, for instance, as I recall, the abolitionist brother of the writer of Jingle Bells (of all things), as a Unitarian preacher in Savannah, was forced out. Haven't read of any prominent Southern abolitionists who weren't suppressed. Do you have info on this--I'd be honestly fascinated to learn about them? You can learn a lot on the 'Cat.

2) What about the questions of the fugitive slave laws? Any comparable situation after 1865? And again, under slavery, families were often split up--as I pointed out, not always due to the whim of the owner--sometimes economic pressure on him. But the result is the same. Back in Washington's day, an estate of a heavily indebted slaveowner was broken up--including a sale of slaves "from 14 or 15 down to the ages of two or three years"--the author attributes Washington's gradual turning against slavery partly to this incident. I suspect it happened later also. After 1865, if a family was broken up, it wasn't because the members were sold off.

3) Still absolutely no evidence to back up an assertion that slavery was on its way out in 1861.   On the contrary, as others have already pointed out, there were Southern plans to further expand it--including Cuba, Haiti etc. And as I have indicated, many whites for quite a while would have been fine with having blacks pick their cotton--as slaves--possibly into the 20th century. And the North was also involved--through cotton markets, banking arrangments, etc.

And as to why I still discuss it--face it, slavery is an emotional issue.   Not, in my opinion, good for flippant and sometimes callous remarks (not aimed at you, obviously). Talking about elections, fine.

Also, I'm reading several books about slavery in the early days of the US--and before. A lot of the same arguments hold--or are even stronger. Obviously I come at from a different perspective--certainly not the war-gaming perspective. I find history endlessly fascinating without any what-ifs. And if people want to speculate, it seems reasonable they should provide some facts to back up their projections. Facts which so far are missing.