I struggled for a way to describe exactly what Joe has said, and I appreciate his clear explanation. I would add that I find many secularists every bit as dogmatic as the fundamentalists. I find them, IMO, every bit as full of unjustified certainty as they convict the fundamentalists of. And before my friend Bill D launches into his patented "I believe in what science can demonstrate is true" kind of argument, I would point out that much of what science, is based on reasoned hypothesis of things that are being guessed at. I also believe that we cannot categorize all secular folks, atheists, agnostics, etc., the same way. I don't believe that Bill D and I are all that far apart on most issues. We do disagree on a very basic part of the equation, but I don't find him as close minded and patronizing as many in this, and other, threads.

Joe has the right of it when trying to explain those of us who consider ourselves to be seekers, and who find the quest to understand creation, and the creator, as a never ending quest, which know can never end. Folks like myself find science as enhancing this quest, adding spice to it, helping us understand, all the while creating more questions than it answers.

I would point out one more flaw in this discussion, and others like it, that I would convict the secularists (for lack of a better term) of. In your missionary zeal to point out all that is wrong with "religion" (talk about a gross generalization) you almost always ignore, or dismiss casually, that fact that much more good is done in the name of living a religious life than bad. I am not speaking here of the low hanging fruit, such as wars based on religion, etc. I am speaking of the untold masses who daily struggle to lead a life based on the tenets we hold dear. I am speaking of the religious folks leading the struggle for peace, fighting to save young lives in the streets and villages inhabited by the poor and underprivileged, I am speaking of those religious folks in the forefront of the fights against disease, poverty, and human rights abuses around the globe. That is not to say that many, many folks of the atheist/agnostic/secular crowd don't lead lives based on being principled and driven to build a better world. But the Mother Theresa's of this world didn't pop out of your movement. She wasn't attempting to proselytize, she simply dedicated her life to taking care of the most disadvantaged. The Rosa Parks, the Martin Luther Kings, et al of this world didn't just pop out of the ground. They were driven by the values of their faith and belief in something greater than ourselves. Ghandi was who he was as a result of his quest of his faith. Here is what the Mohatma had to say about faith:

Faith gains in strength only when people are willing to lay down their lives for it.

Faith is not like a delicate flower which would wither away the' slightest' stormy-'weather.

Robust faith in oneself and brave trust of the opponent, so-called or real, is the best safeguard.

A living faith cannot be manufactured by the rule of majority.

What is faith if it is not translated into action?

Faith is not imparted like secular subjects. It is given through the language of the heart.

Every living faith must have within itself the power of rejuvenation if it is to live. Just as the body cannot exist without blood, so the soul needs matchless and pure strength of faith.

Nonviolence succeeds only when we have a real living faith in God.

My effort should never be to undermine another's faith but to make him a better follower of his own faith.

My faith is brightest in the midst of impenetrable darkness.

Nonviolence is the first article of my faith. It is also the last article of my creed.

Even as a tree has a single trunk but many branches and leaves, there is one religion -human religion- but any number of faiths.


I don't believe one has to be religious to be a good person. But I believe that the quest for that which is greater than us, and at the source of us all, while spawning some great evil, has spawned much more good, and at its root lies the real hope for this world evolving, with much trial and tribulation due to the human condition, for the better.

Civilly and Respectfully,

Mick