The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #106660   Message #2206820
Posted By: Little Hawk
02-Dec-07 - 11:09 AM
Thread Name: BS: China Running Out of Fuel
Subject: RE: BS: China Running Out of Fuel
Yes, Teribus, I had already alluded to the Norman connection, William the Conqueror, and all that, in my post of 01 Dec 07 - 04:20 PM .... as you would know if you read my posts with a little more attention to detail, and a little less malicious intent. I did that specifically so contentious nitpicking minds like yours would take note that I had not overlooked said Norman connection. I am well aware that the Normans came from what is now part of France and they took over and ran England after 1066. I had anticipated precisely the objections you would raise. Follow the asterisk in my post, and you will see that. Those Normans were the aristocracy of England. Their army was composed to a great extent of Native-born Englishmen, and they were attempting to use that army to occupy all of what is now France, in which case what is now France would have undergone a lengthy period of foreign domination, as Ireland did, by a bunch of Norman Aristocrats whose seat of power was in London, and who thought of themselves "the English". The Normans, in effect, became the new English aristocracy, and eventually blended in with the local Anglo-Saxons. As Stigweard said, it was a complicated situation.

Now go and argue it out with the modern-day French, would you? Try to convince them that it wasn't an English invasion of France. ;-)

Now here's a useful quote about it from Wickipedia (note the bolded section):

In 1066, the most famous Norman leader, Duke William II of Normandy, conquered England. The invading Normans and their descendants replaced the Anglo-Saxons as the ruling class of England. After an initial period of resentment and rebellion, the two populations largely intermarried and merged, combining languages and traditions. Normans began to identify themselves as Anglo-Norman. Eventually, even this distinction largely disappeared in the course of the Hundred Years war, with the Anglo-Norman aristocracy increasingly identifying themselves as English. The Anglo-Norman language was considerably distinct from the French language; this was the subject of some humour by Geoffrey Chaucer. The Anglo-Norman and Anglo-Saxon languages eventually merged to form Middle English.

Even after the dukedom of Normandy was lost by the English Crown (although the Channel Islands were retained), and there were several changes of dynasty, the connection to modern France was long maintained. The nobility of England were part of a single French-speaking culture, and many had lands on both sides of the channel and owed fealty to kings of France and of England. The Kings of England included parts (often large parts) of modern France in their dominions, and did not necessarily consider England their most important holding (although it brought the title of King - an important status symbol). Nor did medieval Kings consider England to be owned by Normandy, since if it were considered such it would be under the control of the King of France, Normandy being his vassal. King Richard I (the Lionheart) is often thought to epitomise a medieval English King, but spent more time in Aquitaine or on Crusade than in England, and was not brought up to speak English: in fact, no English King until Richard II was a native speaker. Most medieval English Kings had a claim to the throne of France.