Bobert -- this is probably thread creep but I want to say it anyway, Way back we were living in England -- I don't remember the year but it was when two pre teen boys took a child (Jamie Bulger)   _ for the hell of it and for the unknowing of it..and then basically didn't know how to give him back. So they hit him with 2 x 4s, killed him and left hid body on a railroad track. I remember to this day sitting all my three kids down - the youngest was about 2 to three - and telliing them I wanted them to remember this conversation the rest of their lives. Then I told them this is what happens when you have a leader and a follower -- although the leader does all the actual damage, the follower is just as much destroyed , his family and friends and those who love him are just as much destroyed as the activities of the leader destroyed his family and friends. Today these13 years back from living in the UK - if I talk to my children about this incident they remember our conversation that day. I do not doubt that any of the would walk away from such a situation.......