The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #107407   Message #2235844
Posted By: Bee
13-Jan-08 - 10:40 PM
Thread Name: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
Nick: I'm going to speak strictly for myself here, not for all atheists or all secularists or all anybody. I'm also not going to speak of other religions, since here in North America, it is Christianity we must live with.

It's all very well to say Bush and others like him, who claim to be talking to God and Jesus, are not acting like Christians should act and therefore we shouldn't judge Christianity based on their actions, despite their claims of having God on their side. But a very large portion of the US population believes apparently that actions like those Bush has taken are perfectly in line with their Christian beliefs, and they will cheerfully bring up both Old and New Testament precedents to back them up.

You say: "From what we know of God, God does not use either lies or murder to achieve His objectives. "
But there are examples from the Old Testament that suggest God has done exactly those kinds of things, or told men to do them, in the tales of genocides ordered by God and in events like the hardening (three times) of Pharoah's heart, which is a kind of lying, since Pharoah was disposed to let the Israelites leave except for God's manipulation of his mind.

You may say, like some Christians do, that the Old Testament is irrelevant, but there are many who think the OT is as relevant as the New, and it is certainly the source of information about the Christian God, supposedly the same being as the 'reformed' God of the NT. The NT also still holds women to be lesser (despite the many attempts by genuinely feminist Christians to explain Paul's words away), and is the source of diatribes against homosexuality.
If we must ferret out whether a Christian leader is an OT kinda guy or an NT kinda guy before trusting them not to practice lying and murdering, we still have a problem with loudly praying Christians in the White House.

To your Axiom No. 1 I say, I think Christianity is as good or bad as the individual who professes it, but it is also a guide to how that person might act, once you figure out what kind of Christian they are, and if they are an OT believing, Young Earth Creationist, and evangelistic as well, how can we trust them not to undermine science research and education, reverse gender equality, and work toward Armageddon?

I'm inclined to call your argument by Soviet Russia and French rationalists a scare tactic. I don't think there are many atheists who want to stop people from worshipping however they like - we just don't want our lives constricted or devastated by wars or made shorter and nastier by a refusal to allow science to progress. What is wrong with running a country based on rationality and compassion, two aspects of humanity which can be found and practiced regardless of who or what you might or might not be inclined to pray to?

You say: "But then how safe is it to have atheistic secular leaders who believe that children before birth are not really human at all, and not entitled to the same right to life as everyone else automatically expects. Even when such beliefs are in direct opposition to reality? It's certainly not safe for generations of children as yet unborn; or ultimately for anyone as it creates a sliding scale of humanity on which we may all slip eventually."

If I get into the abortion topic, my post will get longer than yours, if it isn't already. I will just note that science has also found that between forty five and sixty five (some estimates are higher) percent of conceptions - that's after sperm and egg unite to form your unique human - naturally abort, miscarry, slough away, during the first few weeks of pregnancy. Given God's care of unique human life, he appears mighty careless of what happens to it those first few weeks.

You speak as if atheists would wholesale stop the reproduction process, which is ridiculous, since atheists are humans who have babies themselves. Atheists, however, would not place barriers before women trying to get various forms of birth control, would not refuse to prescribe morning after pills (or even refuse to sell contraceptives, like some Christian pharmacists), and might try to offer poor women better health care and better prenatal care, and better financial and social assistance if they actually have children. The person who is for choice says, don't have an abortion if you don't want one. The anti choice person says, you have no choice because of our God.

Again: I don't care if people believe in the supernatural. I do care if they require me to live as if I believed in it, and Christianity is muddy enough to let politicians claim it sincerely and still act like monsters in the real world.

Lastly, I cannot believe that living in the US you could describe Christians as 'feeling isolated', when Christians are eighty percent of your population and almost fifty percent of people profess themselves to be creationists (don't believe in evolution).