Amos said:

"Still no answer Slag:

You claimed that there is a god that:

(1) Creates people with full knowledge of their fate
(2) Decides whether or not to give them the grace to save them
(4) Gives them no other means by which their own efforts can save them
(3) Condemns the ones he didn't decide to save to torture

Why is such a god good? "

1. I never said God created people with full knowledge of their fate. Those are YOUR words. Rather I said that people are responsible for the light that they do have. Do you mean "fate" as future indicative? I would not use that word either. That is the language of determinism to which I don't subscribe except in a very limited sense. Determinism is the antithesis of freewill.

2. I very explicitly stated that God gives His grace to All. Again, you are making straw men and attacking the same. Don't you take time to actually read what has been written? A smart boxer doesn't just flail away at his opponent. He studies and analyses what is going on and looks for weaknesses and openings. You are flailing.

4. (Number order, yours) True. That IS the message of Christianity. either Jesus was an insane ego maniac or he was God incarnate. That has ALWAYS been the question since his advent (small letter pronouns because that IS the question).

Sin and guilt has been around to plague Mankind for a long time. The problem is undeniable. Christianity offers its solution as does psychiatry, volunteerism, masochism, suicide, Hinduism, personal wealth, alcohol, etc. "You pays yer money and you makes yer choices."

3. What an absolutely erroneous misstatement, misquote! I offered just one little book of the Bible; the Book of St. John, the 4th Gospel. Takes about an hour to read, if that, so you could at least sound like you knew what you were talking about. If you had read it you would have not made such an outlandish statement in all honesty. By just the third chapter you would have read, beginning with verse 17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world (Greek word here is "Kosmos" which means Mankind) through him might be saved. vs 18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the only begotten Son of God. vs 19. And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. vs 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light lest his deeds should be reproved. vs 21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

I believe that. And apparently you don't. That is your right and privilege. Again, God came in human form to SAVE sinners. If you have no need for a Savior, great! The message is not for you! What I can't understand is why such hostility if I proclaim that I believe it and it changed my life? That it works for me? Again, I do not believe in determinism (or Calvinism) but in FREEWILL!

With regards to eternal torment it is my conjecture that the words used to describe it are an attempt to warn everyone away from it. It is a physical description of, perhaps a spiritual condition. Again, it is my belief that the torment of Hell is a continuance of consciousness in the utter aloneness separated from God. It's like this: If in the face that all God has done to save you from that awful place or state of being, you reject Him, that is the one limit He has set over which He will not pass, your free will. All of your sins HAVE BEEN forgiven, past tense, for your entire life. You ARE FORGIVEN! Period. All a person has to do is accept God's free gift. That sounds like a pretty good God to me. We create our own places of torment and torture. God is ever present, waiting to fish you out of your mess. You can throw a drowning man a rope but if he doesn't believe he is drowning or that he can save himself, you can't really make him take the rope, can you? That's free will. All you can do is point out that it might be a good idea if he took what was being offered. The decision is his. The witness's responsibility is just to make sure he knows what is available.

And as an aside, I think to PBJ or Mrrzy, I too have little use to those who accost folks and harangue them with "Jesus" in public places. It truly does, I believe, turn more people away from the cause of Christ that win then over. There is a lot of ignorance and bad behavior for which some people excuse themselves because "they are Christians". I've gotten screwed over in business deals by the so-called "brethren". I have had trespassers tell me that it was OK that they were illegally on my land because they "were Christians". Well, I could tell you many stories and I am sure you have your own and maybe they are even the reason for your current attitudes, I don't know. but I can understand. But none of that negates the reality of Christ in my life.

Ultimately, if you believe you have a better plan or explanation, fine. Go for it. Just don't deny me the right to have my say. That's all I am asking.