Yes, Richard, I understand that argument. But had you been a Southerner in the 1860's, you would probably not have seen it that way. In those days people's first loyalty tended to be to their home state. The Southern States decided in their own legislatures to secede. Secession was therefore 100% legal in their terms...and there was also a prior historical precedent in the Declaration of Independence that stated that the American people have a right to cast off anh form of government that is not representing them fairly. That's like a divorce. Either partner in a marriage can decide to leave the marriage. They have that right. Does the other partner then have the right to bludgeon them into insensibility in order to maintain the marriage?

I don't think so.

Amos - Yeah, the cross-pollination thing can certainly happen if the invasion that occurs also involves immigration of great numbers of outsiders into a country or region, and if they win the war. This happened when Whites came into North and South America. It happened when the nation of Israel was created in 1948.

The War in Iraq is not that kind of invasion, however. Ordinary Americans are not emigrating to Iraq in order to live there, and why would they? They are simply occupying it as a military and business presence. That kind of invasion eventually fails, because the local people will kick the foreign presence out one day, when they have the strength to.