Sminky. Here is an 'audit trail' of how the discussion went vis-a-vis the 1850 argument -

1. The Observer (Thread initiator) - Would folk survive without professional singers and musicians?

2. *laura* - Of course it would. It DID for a long long time.

3. Dave Polshaw - When was that then?

4. *laura* - Dave - when parents sang songs to their kids and workers sang songs in fields and then the kids grew up and they sang the same songs to their kids etc etc

I'm not saying it hasn't been helped by professional singers but it existed and survived without people paying for it.

5. Dave Polshaw - The point I was trying to make is that there has never been a time when people have not paid for music, just as there has never been a time when people have enjoyed it for free. Whether it is the latest rock band at Wembley stadium, the singer at the Music Hall, the kings Bard or, presumably, the cave man being fed for drumming out a particularly funky beat:-)

You seem to imply that there was a time when no music was paid for and I still ask; when was that? We do not know if it would survive without, because there has never been such a time and there never
will be.

This is where you come in,

6. Sminky - (Quoting me) You seem to imply that there was a time when no music was paid for and I still ask; when was that?

Now back to your own words -

If we're talking folk music, then the answer is 650BC - 1850AD (approx).

For centuries, 99% (substitute your own percentage) of traditional music was sung/created wherever 'ordinary' people gathered. I'm struggling to understand where money played a part. Sure, there've been minstrels, ballad writers/sellers, publishers etc trying to eke out a living, but they were peripheral at best. Or am I missing something?

Full circle to your last question where you ask for someone to point out where anybody said no-one made a living etc. Well, how about point 6 above...

Don't believe me? Check it out yourself. It's all there.

To me, if I ask when was there such a time when no music was paid for and you answer 650BC to 1850AD, then there is no doubt in my mind that you have just said no music was paid for between those dates. How else can I interpret it? If no music was paid for how on earth could anyone have made a living out of it?

Your second point about minstrels etc being peripheral becomes moot because you have already answerd quite categoricaly that no-one paid for music between those dates.

Can I put it any more simply?

Q. During which period was music not paid for?

A. Between 650BC and 1850AD.

If you are now saying that you did not actualy mean that music was not paid for between those dates then, please, just say so. Let us know what you did actualy mean. No need to make up sinister misrepresentation plots when all I did was report what you had actualy said.

And for heavens sake put us out of our misery. What DID happen in 650BC?

Cheers

Dave