The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #111401   Message #2347222
Posted By: GUEST,Lighter
22-May-08 - 06:22 PM
Thread Name: Origin: Johnny I hardly knew ya
Subject: RE: Johnny I hardly knew ya
Cazden, Haufrecht, and Studer's magisterial "Folk Songs of the Catskills" (1982) has some significant information on the songs in question (pp. 367-68).

First, they mention a previously unnoticed printing of the words (but not the music) to "WJCMH" in two songsters issued by R. F. Simpson in Philadelphia as early as 1861, about two years before Gilmore's formal arrangement of the song was published. The songsters indicate no melody and credit no lyricist or composer.

C, H, & S can not confirm James Fuld's assertion that the song "Johnny Fill up the Bowl" (or "For Bales") - with the Gilmore tune - was actually published a few months earlier than the first full-blown sheet-music of "WJCMH" in 1863. "JFUTB" appeared in New Orleans in 1864, credited to "Saul Sertrew."

There is too much in their discussion to summarize here, and not all of it is quite so interesting. A very important observation, though, which C, H, & S note without making the connection that we can make now, is that Gilmore's song was published in London "about 1865-66," as "sung by the Christy Minstrels and by Harry Liston."

This confirms Sir Richard Terry's connection of the Christy Minstrels with Gilmore's words and/or melody. Even more striking is that "Harry Liston" is the name of the comedian who alsd performed "JIHKY" to "thunderous applause," evidently to Geoghagen's tune. (Maybe he used both.) In any case, "JIHKY" does begin to look even more like a conscious black-humor parody, developed by Geoghegan, Liston, and a few street-ballad printers, of "WJCMH."

Clearly I'm less impressed than Martin is by Sparling's old fisherman.

Gilmore and O'Neill yet to come. Stay tuned.