The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #111301   Message #2348845
Posted By: Teribus
25-May-08 - 12:22 PM
Thread Name: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
Ok, CarolC, let's have a look at them one at a time.

"Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???" - beardedbruce

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

What "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute? - CarolC

How about the fact that Egypt is clearly stating its hostile intent toward Israel? Which is rather at odds with your contention that Egypt's posture was purely defensive. Egypt is clearly under no threat from Israel. Egypt, according to you has massed its troops on Israel's borders in support of Syria, who you say has been threatened by Israel. So I presume that if Israel had attacked Syria, those Egyptian forces would have attacked Israel, in which case their deployment and positions could only have been geared towards the offensive not the defensive.

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

"Again, what "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute?" - CarolC

How about the fact that Egypt had ordered the UN Peacekeepers out of Sinai? Now why would they do that if as you say their posture was defensive? Once more they factually and categorically state their intent to wage total war against Israel.

May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

"What "fact" is beardedbruce stating here? Is it the fact that Nasser made an announcement, or that he blockaded the Straits of Tiran? Or is it that Johnson made that statement? Or that the statement that Johnson made is accurate?" - CarolC

The fact that Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran in contravention of international law. In doing so Egypt stood guilty of a belligerent act against a sovereign country recognised by the United Nations - I'd say that that was a pretty important fact wouldn't you CarolC.

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

"Is the "fact" that el-Assad said what he did, or that that he had the military might to back it up?" - CarolC

The facts stated here are that Syria's armed forces are mobilised, in position and ready not only to defend against any Israeli attack but to invade Israel. By the way CarolC why is it right for Assad to state this as a recognised member of the Syrian Government, while it is reprehensible for an Israeli Army Officer (i.e. not a member of any government hence no real authority) to make a similar threat against Syria

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

"Again, what is the "fact" in each of these that can either be disputed or not disputed?" - CarolC

Well you must know CarolC because didn't you say this:

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts."

Are you attempting to convince people on this forum that those things did not happen? That those statements were not made? If you are then you must surely be delusional because all are well documented, recorded matters of fact.

"Now here is the fly in the ointment CarolC, because it wasn't just Egypt was it? Egypt's rhetoric was extremely belligerent because Nasser had put together a coalition of Arab Armies and had got them drawn up and fully mobilised on Israel's borders. A combined enemy force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft, positioned as it was on your borders poses an undeniable threat CarolC, irrespective of how confident you might be in the capability of your own troops." - Teribus

"Except that Israel had already announced its decision to invade Syria and overthrow its government (documentation in the other thread)." - CarolC

Really? Who exactly in the Israeli Government announced that Israel had decided to invade Syria and overthrow its government?

"Egypt's mobilizing of forces on its border happened after Israel made this announcement." - CarolC

But Israel didn't make any such announcement did it CarolC?

"Egypt and Syria were responding to this announcement from Israel. They were in the defensive posture in response to Israel's announcement that it was going to attack Syria and overthrow its government." - CarolC

Complete and utter bunkum CarolC.

Now how do you explain the following, could this in any way be described as provocation?:

Jan -March 1967 - Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel.

March 3rd 1967 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

March 26, 1967
2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.

April 7, 1967
Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.
   
May 11, 1967
Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7."

UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

May 12, 1967
Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin (Not a member of the Israeli Government) is rebuked by Eshkol (Prime Minister of Israel and as such very much a member of the Israeli Government).