Snail (hate these names - always seems offensive),
I have no problem whatever accepting your assessment of the club scene in your part of the world. Lewes always had a reputation for good folk music; when Pat was doing the bookings for the Singers Club she was often in contact with the club there in order to share guests on tour.
A few years ago a bunch of people from this town spent a long week-end there listening to and playing music - had a whale of a time. (Been meaning to apologise for the incident - Nurse Ratchett was on holiday so they didn't get their medication and managed to slip under the wire!!)
Nor do I have any problem accepting that there are other clubs, like Teesside, flourishing as well as those in Lewes.
Are you saying that the state you outlined is the case for the rest of the clubs (I desperately want this to be the case - I have no desire to slag off clubs; they were my introduction to folk music and they gave be decades of pleasure and inspiration) - if so, what is this (and other threads in similar vein) all about?
You are right of course - I am not fully in touch with what is happening in the English clubs nowadays. We moved to Ireland nearly ten years ago; since then I have had to rely on the handful of visits I have made to the UK, magazines such as The Living Tradition and fRoots, friends who are still involved in the UK scene and forums such as this one for my information. Because of this, in many ways my outlook on the club scene is far wider than it was when I was involved in singing and running clubs - albeit second-hand.
The overall impression I am left with is one of mess, poor health and lack of direction.
In the late 70s, early 80s the club scene began to decline. This was documented quite well in the then leading folk magazine 'Folk Review' first by an article by editor Fed Woods (I think) entitled 'Crap Begets Crap', then by the correspondence which followed. The decline was put down to a variety of causes, noisy, inattentively audiences, bad singing - even passive smoking. A number of correspondents commented "crisis, what crisis?" -shortly afterwards the number of clubs halved and there was a massive exodus away from the scene - I was part of that exodus.
As far as I was concerned, the main problem was that it became virtually impossible to go to a 'folk' club to listen to an evening of 'folk' or 'folk related' songs. We were being fed a mish-mash of music-hall, Victorian parlour ballads, early pop songs, and newly composed songs which were none of these, nor bore any relation to folk song proper - in short, we could no longer be guaranteed the type of music we wanted to listen to. Much of what we heard was performed indifferently - even badly, and totally lacked any joy or understanding.
Yes, the clubs did fall into the hands of people who neither understood nor liked folk music - this from a couple of postings up from this one "A twenty verse dirge ,interesting perhaps to a folk enthusiast.....". Those of us who commented on the situation were branded 'finger-in-ear', 'purist', 'folk-police' (or 'folk-fascists'). We didn't go back to the clubs - some of us continued to work on different aspects of folk song, others drifted away completely. Now it seems that even the 'dictionary re-writers' who took over the scene are deserting the sinking ship - and the same feeble excuses are being proffered.
For me, the problem is plain, even if the solution is not simple. In order to bring in new blood, or even re-attract the old, clubs have to specialise - audiences need to know what they are going to hear if they are going to get up off their bums and traipse along to a folk club.
What is presented has to be performed well enough not to be embarrassing - folk music is worth the effort of working on the songs so that the singer, at the very least, stays in tune, remembers the words and gives the impression that he or she understands and enjoys what they are doing (I've been to numerous clubs where this has patently not been the case).
The singers performing on a particular night need to be aware of their fellow performers to ascertain that the presented repertoire is varied and contrasting, so that the songs don't all sound the same.
A little imagination with the programming, so that the impression is not that the singers attending haven't just turned up unprepared (feature evenings worked very well in the clubs I was attended)..... and a whole host of other little things can make the difference between an interesting and enjoyable evening and a dull one.
For me, the best clubs are those with a handful of strong residents and an occasional guest - that's what makes a club a club and gives it continuity.
I'd like to dispel some of the misinformation about the Irish scene - but this is getting far to long - so, perhaps another time. Enough to say that fifteen or so years ago the Irish music establishment wouldn't have given traditional music the steam from their piss, let alone the money and respect they are giving it now - the situation has been turned round by a handful of dedicated individuals and a great deal of thought and hard work.
I believe the same is possible for the UK, but it won't be done by castigating the folk clubs who have the 'short-sightedness' to put on real 'folk songs' at their 'folk' clubs.
Jim Carroll
PS WLD
We did all of our collecting in Travellers caravans, and in the homes of farmers and fishermen.. etc; not in folk clubs.
Cap'n
"I refuse to comment on Jim Carroll"
For which I will be eternally grateful - let's keep it like that.