Thanks for the explanation. I can now have a better grasp.

I think your premise is that "that if it is OK to imply that the English cannot sing, even as a 'bit of fun', then it is equaly correct to imply that the Irish are thick; that Jews are mean with money; and that Immigrants are criminals. If you had not gathered I don't believe it is OK to say any of the former, as stereotyping is a very dangerous thing to do. Even in fun." is quite a simple yet very deep statement. I would of course, in essence, agree with you. But somehow there is a subtle difference. It is knowing where to stop that is more important I think.

I am blonde so blonde jokes, while I can appreciate as funny sometimes, are basically 'hairist'. If those jokes applied to my skin colour then they would not be jokes but almost certainly racist. In the least, while not perhaps intended to be racist, they undoubtedly are. What I think really matters is the INTENT behind the comment. All jokes should be funny and not making a deeper statement that attacks anyone/anything.

Some white people cannot sing! Some can. I can't ;-)

I am minded of a comment in another subject... "White boys cannot dance", which sounds deeply racist, but has some truth. It is not meant as an insult but a true statement generally. Many white men would actually agree the above statement and not see it as racist.

In principle the torch you are carrying is very bright... and correct... but very literal and serious. I do think most people can tell the difference between an actual slur and good-hearted intent/fun/comment. I guess the actual term "Englishman" is racist as it labels and limits you to what you are but says nothing about you as a person. The stereotypes and labels - which we are all guilty of using, if only occasionally - can be dangerous if written in stone.

Your unanswered question "as to why it is OK to say one and not the other?" is very hard to give a single answer to. I do not believe we are inherently anything. Some can be but all can learn/unlearn things and different ways. Maybe it is 'our turn' to take some of the jesting and comments we are getting and learn we are no different from anyone else on the planet. I often use a comment I heard in an Ally McBeal episode once when men ask why do women have different rules than men.... "Hey! We are women... we have double standards to uphold!". Some things are just true... just because, yet inexplicable. What matters is that we care and know those differences and respect them. In general I think Folksters (my term [label???]for all people who sing Folk) are pretty aware. if we lose diversity then it ceases being Folk just as general life would not be so interesting without all the different diversity and culture.

The proof is always in the pudding. Someone says Englishmen (or women) cannot sing then we know this to be untrue because there are many good examples. I am just sorry I cannot give you an answer because it is a very important question.

But what do I know of life other than what the Folksters sing to me? ;-)

Best wishes

mp