Bryan,
"What am I supposed to do, Jim, when you don't seem to have taken on a word I've said?"
There appears to be a built-in arrogant assumption here that because you've said something we all have to agree with it, otherwise we either can't have been listening or are prejudiced. Sorry Bryan, you simply haven't made your case, simple as that.

"We don't say folk singing requires no standard,"
By saying that all it takes is the desire to sing, you ARE saying that singing requires no standard – what about holding a tune or remembering, understanding and communicating the words, are they not essential basics to singing?

"withdrawal of privileges"
Evocative and misleading language again. Nobody is advocating the "withdrawal of privileges"; we are suggesting that the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage – well within the reach of virtually everybody, or don't you think so?

"We do what we do and we find that it works."
As I said earlier – it all seems to be academic as far as your club is concerned; you have consistently told us that you don't get non-singers turning up asking to sing, so what you are advocating is that the rest of us tolerate what you don't have to.

"....and blame our policy at The Lewes Arms for poor standards elsewhere."
Once a gain, total misrepresentation of what we are saying. My/our opposition is to the idea that a singer doesn't have to reach a basic standard before they are asked to sing (once, of course, it has been established that they are unable to sing – "one bite of the cherry"). It may appear so to you but Lewes isn't the centre of the universe and NOBODY has suggested that your club is responsible for poor standards elsewhere – as you have assured us, your club doesn't have the problem of sub-standard singers turning up and asking to sing, so your argument is an academic one. This is not a discussion of the Lewes policy, but a general one of basic principles and standards.

".......stupid remarks by Matthew Parish. Who cares?"
I do. I have no idea of who Mathew Parrish is so I don't know with what authority he speaks, but I do know that public statements such as his are an indication of how our music is regarded outside of our own folkie world and have done much to create a disregard, and even a contempt for our music and have played a major part in keeping it off the media – or am I mistaken; does folk music get a regular and fair airing on television and radio and is it respected in the 'real' world? The disturbing thing about Parrish and his fellow knockers is that in many cases their criticisms have some foundation. If we do not respect our music enough to expect singers to be able to sing in tune before they appear in public, how the hell can we ask others to?

Throughout this thread, the arguments of those of us who suggest that standards are necessary have consistently been misrepresented, distorted and exaggerated, often deliberately I believe. I can't speak for anybody else, but, for what it's worth, this is a summing up of my argument, which hasn't altered because nobody has put forward a half decent one to counter it – on the contrary, the somersaults and distortions that have been used to undermine our case have strengthened my opinion that there is no argument for putting on singers who cannot yet sing.

From the point of view of the audience:
Nobody should have to listen to (or pay for) bad singing when, with a little effort on the part of the would-be singer, and with the help of the residents, their singing can be brought up to a reasonable (basic) standard. What is the hurry to sing in public; surely it is to the advantage of all concerned for a singer to get the basics under The position should never arise in a club that, when certain singers begin to sing, people slope off – to pee – to fill their pints – or simply to get out of range.
It is a sad fact that audience members, particularly new ones, will remember bad singing as much as they remember good singing; if not more so. Put on inept singing and your club stands a fair chance to be branded as a place for bad singing, no matter how good the other singers are – seen it happen and have on occasion been guilty of making such judgements myself in the distant past.

From the point of view of the other residents.
Anybody who has appeared with a singer/singers with basic problems must have experienced that legs-crossing embarrassment, both on behalf of the singer and of the club you are trying to promote. I've known it totally spoil an evening and have heard residents apologise when it happens. With a little preparation it simply isn't necessary, so why put anybody through it, the new singer included?
How are the residents and regulars expected to react to bad singing? Do they applaud riotously, thereby persuading the aspiring singer that what they have just done was the best thing since the invention of the wheel - so keep on truckin' – no need for any work – see you next week?
Do they clap politely, giving the impression that the singing was 'well – ok, leaving them in limbo and not knowing where they stand?
Or do they go down for a pee and a pint and pretend nothing happened?
Or what?

From the point of view of a new singer.        
What on earth difference can it make whether a singer appears tonight or in three of four weeks time when they have managed to put in the work and taken advantage of the assistance that any self-respecting folk club has to offer, which should include confidence building and relaxation to overcome nerves?
It has always seemed to me that putting a new singer before they are ready is like throwing somebody into a swimming pool in order to teach them to swim – sure, some might make it back to the side, but what about those who don't – let the buggers drown??? I'm sure that I'm not alone in having experienced the feeling jeeze – why did I do that and why didn't some bugger stop me?

Answer these questions Bryan and you might go some way to persuading me that you have something to say.

More to be said, but this is far too long as it is.
Jim Carroll
PS Bryan,
"Jim most certainly has suggested that such performers be required to accept tuition or attend workshops before being allowed to sing again."
I suggested no such thing - I did say that any singer with basic problems should overcome them before they became regular singers at the club no matter how they did it - workshops are an alternative, certainly not a condition, as were one-to-one work with other residents, or simply sitting at home with a recorder until they got it passably right - please don't distort what I have said.