Sorry all - I didn't mean to turn this thread into a 'why can't some musicians make a living in folk clubs discussion.' Obviously there are other ways that someone wanting to play clubs can make a living - both inside and outside music, and there will always be some people happy to do that, so therefore always some people available to clubs as guests.

What I was wanting to drill down on was the implications behind DtG's original post and his question; "Has anyone else found this happening? If so, what do you think it is? Are people becoming more discerning about how they spend their time?"

Swinton (which I've not visited myself) seems to be slap bang in the middle of Dave's category 3. In other words right now they are getting the balance right - for what they want to achieve, that is. But we know from the OP and other threads that Dave (and many others like him) have concerns for the future.

Are there some fundamental changes happening? And if so what are the long term implications?

I think there are a number of factors at work...

1) Demographic change. The core folk market is ageing. When I started the average age of the folk club regular might have been 60 somthing. Ten years later it's 70-something. (Maybe it's ten years less, but you see what I mean. At 70 something we're less likely to go out on a chilly evening, to spend precious money on something we might possibly not enjoy as much as all that. Etc.

2) Pub changes. Drink driving laws started to impact on pub attendance years ago. Since the smoking ban many pubs are dying before our eyes - and that's impacting on clubs within them. The club might still be jumping, but the rest of the place is a morgue, and visitors have to run the gauntlet of depressed staff, cold uncleaned rooms, dark empty corners, only hard-core drinkers around and smokers loitering at the door.

3) Changes in the economy. Fuel prices (thankfully not as bad as they were - I made my decision to retire when they were shooting up, by the way), credit crunchy bars etc, all having an impact.

4) Long terms changes in the dominant philosophy of folk music as discussed elsewhere.

Add any of these together, and you have a difficult situation for any club organiser. Solutions exist - better promotion, more careful attention to issues like the welcome, balance of quality issues, introduction of new ideas like food, workshops, open mic nights etc.

But these are mostly under consideration by committees, not the folk public - and often in isolation (though thankfully we now have the Folk Club Organisers Forum, which can help a bit).

But here we have a chance to hear from members, floor singers, artists pro and am, passing trade, the disaffected, the 'festival only's the 'concert only's- the works.

What do people think?

Without going and counting again - I think my database (I'm not going there these days as I'm not gig-finding any more) contains about 400 clubs in the UK. About 100 only book guests and supports (DtG's no 1), about 100 never book guests (no 2) and about 200 are in the middle (no 3), with a challenging time ahead.

What do the 3s do? Change to 1, change to 2, give up, or slog on. And if they don't slog on, what are the long term implications for 1, 2 and the festivals etc?

Tom