"I just got home from what was supposed to be a "singing party". There were about 12 people there, all singing off key & reading Christmas Caroles from books, including RUS. No one knew any songs through that they could lead so there were 12 leaders, following along the best they could, even doing a Beatles Christmas song & they passed out the prints of it & still couldn't get it right, they were bleeding where it overlaps."

Sorry Barry, but what you are describing sounds EXACTLY what a PARTY should be. I would love to hear the reaction from the 12 people that were there. It sounds like they were enjoying themselves and singing songs that were part of their traditions (like the Beatles) and were singing in a fashion that is EXACTLY what FOLK MUSIC is meant to be - participatory entertainment, not an exhibition of skills.

"You don't teach bad singers to get better by having them sing with their peers"
Is the idea to teach people to be BETTER singers or to teach them about how music can enrich their lives? As I said earlier, the purpose of the "sing" needs to be defined.   Is it a performance or an excercise of a folk community? If it is the latter, the setting of arbitrary rules impacts on the process.

"When I lived in San Francisco 30 odd yrs ago they had some of the best singing parties I ever went to (God I miss those days), there were new people, young & old, great singers & bad singers, they all sang a varity of genres, there was a great flow of songs but when they crowded a room the roof lifted & not a piece of paper could be seen....
the strong singers held court & the rest supported them. Eventually the weaker singers grew to become part of the strong core & got to lead on their own....
It was magic, a few yrs later the good/strong singers left to form their own Way, the books had taken over & a good thing died an awful death...
Today that sing still exists& it still sucks
.....
the one attended by the core that left is smaller but it's good but not nearly as great as it once was"

Oh boy. You sure said a lot there, and if you step back you might see it a bit differently.

First, none of us can live the way we did 30 years ago. Too much has changed and our communities reflect that.   Some can certainly live in enclaves that maintain certain traditions, but for the rest of us time moves on and traditions live in their own form.

Your description of that original sing sounds wonderful, yet there was a point where "the good" and "the bad" separated.   

You mentioned that both sessions continue, but the one with the books "still sucks" (your words). The other is not as good, and you note that the "core" is smaller.

As an outsider, it seems like neither side could adjust to the other. The lightning in the bottle that was created could not sustain itself and because of a lack of understanding and patience - and a perception of what should be happening - the groups split. It sounds like the group that is using the books continue, and I would imagine if they are still around they are enjoying what they do in the spirit of their community.   The other group sounds "smaller" (your word) which to me indicates that it is a clique.

The example you gave of singing on board ships does not reflect this situation. Those on board ships sang for different reasons - part of their work and their source of entertainment. Being confined to a ship, and being part of their "job", they had a different opportunity for the group dynamic to work.

With a community sing, be it a club or pub, the participation is voluntary and the "pay" is the joy of singing. The question becomes, how do you sustain such a community - or does water find its own level.

I honestly do NOT think that a book has any bearing on these sings. I think if you really examine it, it is the perceptions and needs of the individuals who make up the group.   The question to be asked - do you want to be involved with a diverse community of people who simply enjoy the opportunity to sing - or do you want to be involved with a more structured group that follow a more structured session and sings for the art of performing?

I mean no disrespect to Barry or any of the others who have shared their opinions.   I simply disagree with their thinking on this.   Some of my fondest memories of Old Songs and Mystic is hearing Barry raise his magnificent voice at an after concert sing. It is truly inspiring and a gift that I felt lucky to receive as an observer. At the same sessions, I've witnessed people singing show tunes, Beatle songs - some of them reading from RUS or sheets of paper - and I can see enormous pride in their faces as they finish their song and realize that they have enjoyed the accomplishment of singing in such a community.

Such sings are not meant for everyone. The sings that Barry mentioned may not be for him, but from what I am reading from his posts - they seem to be sessions that others enjoy.   I would hate to see this type of enthusiasm and participation stifled by a desire to hone a better "sound" and a more professional exhibition of music. There are plenty of opportunties for that.