Lots of constructive comments!

Will split the informative elements off from the argumentative bits - hope that's ok (but will probably fail!).

Suzi Z - yes Mike Peach and his team have done an excellent job creating a nice friendly folk club. I enjoyed my visit early last year.

You charge on guest nights - but did you know that at the brilliant 1970s Dukes Head Folk Club (Addlestone) they managed to book big name guests every three months or so - and still had free entry on those guest nights. This was excellent for bringing the club and folk generally to the attention of a wider audience - perhaps the secret for the excellence of that much lamented club.

Banjiman - false divisions? I think they're real. It seems that there are undoubtedly two (3 Capt Birdeye?) types of folk club - And I'm being careful about bar sessions here, as some are proper folk clubs - but in a public space, where others are closed sessions musically, for drinkers to listen to.

This thread was intended to promote the Singers type folk club (along with those guest clubs where singers are valued for more than being punters who might ask to do a song). Drawing from this: type 1 - 'SIngers Folk Cub' - folk clubs existing for singers.

But the thread has been joined by people seemingly unhappy with singers being viewed any different from punters. ie.they broadly represent a very different sort of club - one existing to provide a 'folk product' for 'Folkal Consumers' - type 2. Here is the clear division. But isn't it a case of attitudes?

I agree with your later paragraph about overlap. What better than doing a Singers' club one night and a guest club the next if everyone in both types of folk circle can respect the difference? Indeed one of our Song Club participants tonight* also supports a particular local Guest Club*.

The problem in my experience living in different parts of England over many decades is the folk clique who see things as a pecking order, therefore looking down on floor singers, Singers Clubs and Singarounds - typically anything/one that's not commercially active. They are still all too common. These are the antagonists - and it's inevitable they will stimulate reaction.

Must add the comment of another of our singers who, in contrast, rarely goes to a guest club. She managed a guest club night recently, but although she enjoyed the guest, added that "he was no better than most of US". This says to me that Clubs that discourage floor singers by attitude, or demanding pennies from a barren purse are missing out on a wealth of folk talent. They may not need the floorsingers, but they are nevertheless restricting the pool of singers their audiences are able to hear.

And Breezy - how can I forget you!

Interested to see your reference to St Albans. Friends who came along to our Wednesday singaround a couple of weeks ago used to run a folk club at the Spotted Cow. Walked past it late last year - looks a real good folky pub still.

Ian Fyvie