Bryan,
I really didn't want to go head-to-head with you; been there, done that - I found it upsetting and unproductive then and I have no doubt that I will do so again.
Nobody 'owes' us anything; Pat and I did what we did because we thought it worthwhile and we got an enormous amount of personal pleasure from it.
One of the problems with our field-work is that the bulk of it, particularly that we did with Walter, lies on the shelves untouched - why? - because when I read of 'folk' clubs presenting performers singing Misty, Girl From Ipanima and The Great Pretender (yes, and The Beatles) my reaction invariable is 'Why ******* bother; who gives a shite about Walter's wonderful Van Dieman's Land (especially as it's probably far too long for those who persistently moan about the length of songs) or Rambling Blade (which Walter described as "The best old folk song ever written), and most of all, who cares what he had to say about his songs and singing.
My instinct, based on my own experiences and on discussions like these is, leave it on the shelf and let posterity decide.
I had a thirty year involvement with clubs in the UK and enjoyed most of that time, though I did find it tapered off towards the end, due mainly to a fall in standards and the disappearance of traditional material. The few sorties into the club scene over the last ten years have only served to confirm what I believed to be happening then.
I have no desire to see the 'tradition maintained', I never have had; the tradition is dead and has been for a long time. What we have is a wonderful body of songs which, I believe are as entertaining and inspiring, and moving as they ever where; but more important than that, the provide us with a unique template on which to make new songs (no, I'm not talking about the 'personal - private and extremely introspective singer-songwriter stuff that invariably leaves me with the desire to tap the singer on the shoulder and ask to be allowed in to his/her private little world)'.
" your ludicrous notion that the entire UK folk club circuit is...."
That is not my notion, but I do feel that, when people can claim that the only requirement for performing in public is 'the desire to do so' and that standards are not just unnecessary, but undesirable in case they 'scare off the less talented', or that a folk club is a place for people with 'no expectations or criteria', I worry about the future of the music as a performed art.
Whether you accept it or not, these notions are "dumbing down" and "promoting bad standards". If I have been mistaken and they are not yours, or anybody's opinions, I apologise and unreservedly withdraw any remarks I might have made.
I am certainly not trying to undermine the efforts of any club, whether I agree with what they are doing or not. From what I have heard of your club, I heartily applaud what you are doing and wish that other clubs could learn from it, but it seems to me that some of the things you have said in the past run totally contrary to your actual achievements.
I do find it thoroughly depressing that, once again we are discussing whether standards and ability are necessary rather than how higher standards can be achieved and abilities developed - for me that is a resounding confirmation of how things stand in the folk scene today.
I never started this thread; I have never started a thread on this subject or anything resembling it, but I am happy to participate in discussions such as these because the music is important to me and I would hope that others will have the opportunity to get the same buzz that I got from it over the last four decades.
Jim Carroll