Well Ian I have read your posts again, and I'm afraid i still come away with the same impression.

"Guest Club supporters being unable to accept that Singers considered bottom in their pecking order can be as good as their professional heroes"

Sorry, I'm not picking this up anywhere. As I said, the fact that there are plenty of non-guest musicians that are better than some guests is so obvious to anyone who visits clubs as to never need saying, which is why you seldom hear it said. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone demean singers clubs per se. There is quite a lot of criticism of the few poorly-prepared or otherwise less able singers (not from me, natch), but to interpret that as some sort of attack on singers clubs in general is almost verging on the edge of a zone which has a phenomenon on the very far side of it called paranoia.

Don't forget that standards are relative. When you and your chums note a 'guest doing the rounds who really is not more than adequate' perhaps yours is the minority view. You may just not like that style, but others may love it - and it's best always to take this into account.

No, no-one is demeaning singers nights, just pointing out that they are slowly taking over from guest nights, and suggesting where this may lead. Do you see the difference?

And I'm not sure why you feel that the world is suggesting that all singers should aspire to some ladder-climbing exercise towards becoming guests. Yes people do suggest that everyone should strive to improve for their own sake and the sake of their listeners, and yes, I say it's important that a ladder should exist for the reasons I've given, but no-one's suggesting everyone should climb it. That would be just stupid!

I, and others who say similar things, are merely trying to point out the value of guests and guest nights to the folk scene overall, which is more subtle than it might at first appear.

I don't know where you learned to write and perform 'folk-style' songs, but I learned at the feet of some fantastic folk musicians (some amateur, but mostly pro - because pound for pound, pros do tend to be 'better' because they need to be). And I still love to go and watch Vin or Jez or Steves T or Kn, or any number of others, and remind myself how far I have yet to go in my own writing. I'm rather surprised that you don't.

I'm even more surprised to hear that you have absolutely no folk heroes. Is there really no working artist that you admire more than yourself? Or is that just because you seldom go to see other writers so haven't encountered any really good ones yet?

You must indeed be a mighty writer yourself (Gentle joshing here, ok? :-), and I look forward to hearing your stuff! You'll probably become yet one more of my own heroes, of which I have a couple of hundred already.

I too am a writer, but that doesn't mean I'm not delighted to be able to go and watch someone else (or a room full) without sounding a note myself. Ok, I have plenty of outlets, but I knew from an early stage, before I turned pro, that I could, if I wanted, get a bigger reaction with just one of my songs than with four. Less can be more. And I love to sit and listen too.

All that said, I understand and support your position of not being interested in guest nights. That's your choice. I merely want you to understand that if everyone felt the way you do (and people of your opinion are in fact winning the argument here, by the way) we'd eventually loose something of value. (I've already lost a wonderful career precisely because of it).

Tom