GfS, your description of the experience of your friend is anecdotal, and it may very well be true in his case. I, however, have had discussions with gay men who tell me a whole different story. Many of them had perfectly fine relationships with their fathers. In some cases the relationship turned out not to be so fine when the son "came out of the closet," but by then, the son's gender orientation had made itself manifest. And it was not their decision. In fact, it was something they often denied and fought against.

I know one gay man quite well who had a very good relationship with his father as he was growing up. Through grade school and high school, he always had the feeling that he was somehow different. He liked girls, but he just wasn't as interested in them, especially physically, as the guys he knew. And—he found himself attracted to other boys that he admired, although (he realizes now) he always had to repress disturbing feelings of physical attraction; the kind of feelings that he knew his male friends seemed to have about girls.

And he would have punched out anyone who said that he was "gay" or "queer."

Following the "norm," he dated girls, and eventually he married. It didn't take him long to realize that this had been a big mistake. He liked the woman very much, but their physical relationship was a disaster. And they were both miserable. After a couple of years—and marriage counseling—it became clear what the problem was.

This was not a "decision" on his part. It was a recognition of what IS.

They had an amicable divorce. Shortly thereafter, he met a man. They have been living together quite happily for several years now. They own things together, including a condo and an automobile. A stable, monogamous relationship.

They are both "out of the closet" to their families and friends, and they would like very much to render their relationship official. But so far, the existing laws will not allow them to do this.

Mark says that he has always been gay. It just took going through hell to make him realize it, then finally admit it to himself. "Now," he says, "I feel like a whole human being." On the same-sex marriage issue, he says, "I just don't see why David and I shouldn't have the same rights everyone else has!"

GfS, because I am concerned over the matter of denial of civil rights, and am willing to argue the issue and present both ethical arguments and scientific evidence as to why it is unjust and unfair, you insist on accusing me of being a brainless, closed-minded idiot and (oh, horrors!!) a "liberal," along with being "small minded, excuse seeking, [and] politically motivated."

(You silver-tongued devil, you!)

And even though you may not be a bigot, you often descend to talking like one, and you use the same litany of arguments, debating devices, and pejorative terms that bigots generally use to try to support their prejudices. So we're back to ducks again.

Anecdotal evidence does not trump the results of scientific studies. And attempting to dismiss them by claiming that the scientific evidence has been "bought" by "the gay lobby" is just more of the same kind of bigoted rhetoric.

So if you resent being labeled a "bigot. . . ."

Being (as I have been accuse) a "brainless liberal," I find it strange that I should be quoting that paladin of the American conservative movement (now regarded by conservatives as a bit too much of a "centrist"), Barry Goldwater, but it's pretty hard to deny the truth of one of his best known quotes:

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!

Don Firth