Well, Carol, that's one reason to have this discussion, but one of the by-products might be to arrive at some workable solution as to how to extract information for a prisoner without the use of torture.

                   Shaving the beards off of detainees, or making them eat ham sandwiches should be a good way to get information without the use of torture. After all, it's not the fault of the captor that the prisoner is addicted to some ancient superstition or another.

                   And for Richard to call it racism is totally out of line. People from every race all over the world will happily eat a ham sandwich. It's only the addicts that will not. At the end of the day, it would be no different than withholding heroin from a junkie.

                   They could have done that to get the information that they wanted. The reason they might not have is because so many of them were addicts themselves. On NPR today, there was a discussion about how Rumsfeld posted Biblical quotes to his intelligence briefings. I suppose he thought god was on his side, but...

                   If sober people could have been in charge, we might have known everything.