I don't miss the point, Amos. I am well aware of what concerns many of you here about the civil rights issue, and I see no particular reason to oppose you on that, because in the whole I agree with you. I have said many times that I have no objection to ANY pair of consenting adults marrying one another.

I also see what's concerning Akenaton. I don't think he's talking specifically about the California legal situation which is what many of you here are focusing on, I think he's discussing in a more general sense as it applies to the whole world including his own society in the UK whether a legal marriage complete with all the traditional ceremonials and expectations should be extended and broadened in its definition to include same-sex marriages as well as the traditional marriage of a man to a woman. He feels that it shouldn't, and for a number of reasons that are not based on some supposed hatred he has for gays.

But that's only the start. He also feels that many in the liberal/progressive community (which he himself is a part of since he is a leftist progressive politically speaking)...he feels that many are lining up like good little slogan-repeating conformists within their own political correctness movement and supporting an exaggerated and out of balance media extravaganza that's been going on for at least a decade or more now about gay rights, primarily because they are, so to speak, admiring their own glorious "liberal" reflection in the mirror of their own minds while they're doing it, and that pleases them...not because they love gay people.

And that could be a problem. Are people for something on genuine principles? Or are they acting out the latest political orthodoxy because they are so in love with their own righteous self-image? Do they really care about gays? Or do they care about how they sound when they start talking?

That might be what is really concerning Akenaton here...and why he is so pissed off at what he sees a lot of so-called "liberals" doing.

They're a bit like all the folkies back in the mid-60s...caught up so much in their own perceived moral purity and saying all the "right" things to each other loudly...and Oh! just so pleased to find some outcast heretics like Akenaton or GfS to pounce on and eviscerate with holy ardor....but do they actually give a damn about most gay people?

Something along that line... ;-)

I think you are mainly discussing Prop 8, Amos. I think Akenaton is discussing some much wider-ranging and more subtle issues beyond that, and so am I.

And I agree with both of you on certain points, while I disagree on others. Furthermore, I respect both of you.