You all insist on taking everything I say about society personally, eh? I have not named any of you as being a fascist, a hypocrite, a bigot, or anything else like that. It would be wrong to, because you are all complex people, and you can't be summed up by one derogatory word. I'm talking about the behaviour of human beings in general. I'm discussing philosophical things about human nature.

OK. But you still haven't said why you say things in response to other people that you don't mean to apply to the conversation, and don't mean about those people. I ask again: why are you answering people with generalizations that you don't think apply to them? If I may say so, that's a really stupid thing to do. If nothing else, it makes people think you are talking to them while you're talking to them.

John, I don't have to agree 100% with either side of this argument. It's rare that one side is completely wrong and the other completely right in an argument.

No one says that you have to agree with anything. I do think you should either support the things you say or shut up.

You guys seem to resent that. I have to assume you do think in "all or nothing" terms, and your rhetoric certainly suggests so.

This is where you are on shaky ground. Our rhetoric has been directed toward encouraging Akenaton to support his statements with both facts and logic.

Really, I think you all protest overmuch. I think you're getting carried away with your own need to completely win something here...not a prize...not a medal...not anything that will last...just a longwinded argument here on an obscure internet forum that doesn't matter and that won't change anything for gays in California. You won't quit until you think you've "won" or until anyone who says differently from you stops posting and goes away.

Really shaky ground here. Saying this just shows that you don't know squat about me or my motives. I don't feel any need to win anything. I do feel a need to confront injustice, since I believe that not doing so is going along with it in a way.

Well, I don't care. (shrug) I see it in shades of grey, I see some reason on both sides, I see that you all have high ideals and are defending something you deem valuable, I mostly favor you guys on the legal arguments, and I respect the fact that you all are sincere in what you say.

Thank you. That's a much nicer thing than just about anything else you've said on this thread.

And if that ain't good enough....too bad. ;-) I have no emotional need to prove anything to any of you and it would be a waste of my time trying to. I come here because I like to talk. Period. And so do you. But you can't talk and remain friendly, it seems, unless you get your own way on everything. That's unfortunate.

Back on shaky ground again. Trying to draw conclusions about my inner emotional state. Please stick to things it is possible for you to know about.

Here's the deal, Little Hawk: I'm tired of being taken to task by you, especially since you don't seem to know what I'm talking about most of the time, and you really don't know what's going on in my head. Every time you come up with one of your rude "generalizations" about what's going on in this discussion, I'll demand that you support what you're saying in more than general terms. I've asked three times now why you think that we've not been trying to understand what Akenaton has been saying. You've said that several times, and haven't offered any evidence for the statement. Since you repeatedly haven't answered, I am left to assume that you can't support that sentiment. So is that one off the table now? Can we trust you to not wait two or three days and then say it again, as has been your pattern here?

Here's time two for the next question: Why do you say insulting things to people in the middle of a conversation, and then, when you are called on it, say that you are just making general comments? If you don't mean the statements to apply to the people you are talking to, why say them? Don't you understand that both sides of that are rudeness? Either you are insulting people, or you are putting up straw men and wasting everyone's time.

You see, Little Hawk, your involvement in this thread has largely been what looks to me -- and apparently to Don and Amos as well -- being a sanctimonious prig who doesn't pay attention to what other people are saying, and who says outrageous things without bothering to support them in any way. Perhaps you should consider following your own advice and consider what you are saying.