The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #79469   Message #2685015
Posted By: blind will
21-Jul-09 - 11:13 PM
Thread Name: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
TinDor,

Responding to more of your comments...

"Based on that, I would say Black Gospel is musically "African"

Like Michael Morris said it's not African or European, but rooted in a blend of those two traditions.Just take the music of Afro-American gospel pioneer Charles A. Tindley (who was a big influence on the so called father of gospel Thomas Dorsey).Where did he get his brand of gospel from? He got his style by combining the black spiritual form with the white gospel hymn (which is a musical descendant of both camp meeting songs, the parlor songs of Stephen Foster, Italian operatic melodies, British ballads and Afro-American forms).Another perfect example is the black gospel quartet.It again has ties to the black spiritual (and thus to African roots) but it also has roots that stretch back to the close harmony singing of German speaking Europeans.(The German/Austrian roots of the close harmony quartet tradition is well documented in Gage Averill's most excellent book "Four Parts, No Waiting).A third example is Mahalia Jackson's rendition of "Joy To the World".It has some very distictive Afro-American traits while also having a very notisable classical flavour, the tune itself taken directly from the classical hymn canon (partialy based on Handel's Messiah).Alot of this is repeating what I've said earlier, so I risk being to monotonous.

"IMO, the African-American guy Ruff, is doing little with his claims of origin."

I'd have to agree with you 100 % on this point! The lined out hymn tradition is a very important root to Afro-American gospel, but Willie Ruff should consider the liner notes of my Gaelic Psalms cd: "Precenting, or the practice of putting out the line and responding, is not exclusive to Gaelic language, or Gaelic Presbyterian church tradition; it was first used in English with most of the original tunes coming from Europe, England and the scottish Lowlands" (Quotation taken from the cd "Salm: Volume 1 Gaelic Psalms from the Hebrides of Scotland).

"A comparison of Gaelic/Watts "Lining Out vs AfroAmerican doing the same style of "Lining Out"

Both the Gaelic and Afro-American examples are of the lined out tradition and so they share some things in common.But they are hardly doing the same style of "Lining Out" having distinctively different styles.The Afro-American "Dr.Watts" genre owes about as much to African music as it does the British lined out tradition.One of the differences with Dr.Watts is it's heavy use of overlapping vocal parts (something common to West African music but not very prominent in Gaelic Psalm singing) and the use of African derived vocal effects such as moaning.

"Difference between Call & Response (African style) and Lining Out (gaelic-watts)"

First of all, there is no Gaelic or Dr Watts lining out in the video link you supplied with this comment.It compares white American lining out from Kentucky with an upbeat black spiritual from the Sea Islands.If it were to compare a Dr. watts hymn from the sea Islands to a black spiritual from the same region, there might be alot more similarity.But in any case, the video gives a false distinction between lining out and call and response.Both examples have a call and response pattern, just in a different way and in a very different style.If a person calls and people respond with the same exact line, it's still a call and respond pattern.and even if a song lacks a call and response pattern, it may still have other traits commen to African music and have African roots.

"On the Blues style, it's almost pseudo Arabised Islamic in sound.Not to similar to the Gaelic sound at all."

It's interesting that you say that.When I first heard the Gaelic Psalm singing it reminded me of a Moslem mosque (the way the leader sings).Some people have compared it to the Christian Coptic Chant (which sounds very similar to Islamic music).

As far as the blues tradition having ties to Arab/Islamic music, I think there is an actual connection (atleast some blues stylings).I've notised that alot of different black African singers have some of that Arabic/Islamic vocal quality to their singing style.Considering the history of Islam in Africa, I don't think this is a coincidence.I can also hear some very obvious Arab/Islamic similarities in some Spanish music, which clearly owes to the Arab roots in Spanish culture.I think it's pretty safe to say that Spanish styles such as "flamenco" have Arab roots, which in return spilled over into the blues genre (Early bluesman Blind Lemon Jefferson had elements of flamenco in his guitar style, from Spanish-Mexican guitar players he heard).

It should be kept in mind that not all blues vocal stylings have an obvious Islamic similarity in vocal style.And not all field holler renditions of "Levee Camp Holler" are sung in that exact manner in the video you shared.Furthermore some of the same qualitys in Islamic singing can also be found in the lined out hymn tradition.For instance the use of melisma (ornamental phrasing of several notes in one syllable) is common throught the different lined out styles--from the Gaelic Psalm singing, Afro-American Dr.watts, to the lined out singing of Native Americans and Amish Americans.Also the use of "bent notes" in the Muslim call to prayer is certainly common in the Dr.Watts tradition, a style that has been documented from the 1750's.

Personally I believe the American field holler is a hybrid musical style, having roots in both Dr.Watts hymn singing and the West African work song tradition.There also appears to be a measure of Islamic flavoured African in the field holler/blues tradition (as far as my ears are concerned), but this should be kept in balance and not over emphasised to the point of ignoring other influences.

I will continue another day with one more response to your comments, plus some videos of Dr.Watts singing! I have a two week vacation coming up on the weekend, so hopefully I will get to it before that.