I think you have a point, [], in that most of us reach a plateau at some point and find we don't easily make much more progress.

From when I was a guest I remember a similar thread, but I can't now find it. My experiene of what Marje described has been that there were several plateaux; I'd get to a certain stage and then, no matter how I tried, I couldn't improve. Then, some time later, I'd get beyond that particular block and improve until I hit another. This has gone on for soome years now and I think it fits Robin's description of how some brains work; he has a known set of variables whereas I just got on as best I could.

Which brings me to Robin's original post. Many of us have different definitions of what constitutes "training" and I suspect there's be similar variety in how we defined "instruction", "teaching" and "learning". The casual explanation to Don, by his friend of the time, of how chords could be constructed on a guitar is really instruction (for some) or teaching (for others) his retention of the knowledge (learning) required repetition (training) and application of the methodology (by trial and error?) to create other chords. The key to progression is to keep up the practice of putting yourself into such learning situations and applying what you find out; ie practising. Such practices and practising is what everyone does when they're training.

The old hoary chestnut of 'not reading the dots' could be said to apply to me; I can't read music but I've had the pleasure of being in the company, for many years, of others who knew enough theory and could explain what they knew with simplicity and clarity. I managed to become relatively well informed (although Jack took a few strips off me at one stage) to be able to write music (that didn't need a stave) well enough for others to perform from the score exactly what I had envisaged.

But, while I was actively performing with Oz bush bands I deliberately refrained from learning to read the dots, not because I thought it might impair my performance, but because I was continually coming across people who had tried to learn to play an instrument but failed. They would express amazement that I could sing and play without having had formal "instruction" and ask how I'd done it. In most cases, they had gone and bought an instrument (usually a guitar) and then had tried to teach themselves at least three things at once; (1) the ergonomics of the instrument and keeping it in tune, (2) how to read music, and (3) how tunes and chords actually work, often using unfamiliar material in the instruction books.

#3 can be hard enough, especially for people who've been told consistently that they're tone deaf but trying to do the others simultaneously can lead to a sense of failure. I explained that I had listened hard and extensively to the sort of music I was interested in and could imitate reasonably well with my voice, a form of training I would suggest they tried. I then found an instrument that didn't need constant tuning and that I could "find my way around" ergonomically; for me it was a concertina and I'd recommend they tried a range of instruments rather than just stick with the popular ones. I'd suggest they tried "Happy Birthday" or a few simple nursery rhymes with melodies they already knew. I'd also suggest they found a place to practise where there was no "critical audience" and they could make mistakes in peace; I could play only three tunes for at least a year.

And then, once they'd got the hang of their instrument a bit better and wanted to explore, then get into learning to read the dots, always with an ear to how others played the same or similar pieces and why they sounded the way they did. But a good teacher will help you get there quicker, once you've trained your ears.

Now that I'm no longer that sort of performer I will get into learning to read (and write) the dots, as I need to keep up with my daughters, who are both extremely competent at dots and by ear. And, like them, I'll probably get going with a formal teacher.

Cheers, Rowan