"All singers are traditional singers; all music is part of a tradition and all songs are traditional songs with respect of their particular idiom, culture and genre"
I think that in the context of several threads debating the validity of folklore and oral traditions this must be the most mealy-mouthed piece of bullshit I have ever come across.
After a desperate attempt to place all music under the 'folk' umbrella and disprove the uniqueness of what we (or most of us) understand as 'folk' on a forum concerning itself with ' folk music', we are now left with this world-shattering statement.
Over these threads we have been told that folklore, tradition, folk process……, all the things that have gone into preserving the songs that have given us much pleasure are – what – the imaginings of a group of "agenda driven, sloppy" researchers and collectors. And how have these conclusions been reached? Certainly not by research – the pair making these accusations haven't even had the courtesy to examine the work they are junking "research – sorry, don't go there", from both of them. And on the basis of these armchair musings we are supposed to walk away from everything we might have picked up during the years we have been involved with folk music.
None of the claims of the non-existence of folk or tradition have been backed up with evidence – we've had several appeals not to ask for it "as there's too much of it to make that possible." So everything we've given is, as far as I'm concerned, agenda driven by two people who haven't even bothered to do any research, sloppy or otherwise.
I was particularly amused by the facile comparison of recording and documenting folk songs with collecting Clarice Cliff pottery. In the unlikely case of my feeling hurt that collectors are undervalued or unwanted I can always take comfort in the fact that any folkie who has ever put his or her mouth around a traditional song, whether they make a magnificent sean nós job of it or settle for being a failed pop-singer taking refuge in the folk revival, has been the beneficiary of the work of a collector.
Arguments like this one always leave me with a dirty taste in my mouth, not so much on behalf of the centuries of collectors and researchers; their work speaks for itself; it's given me a forty-odd years worth of pleasure and preoccupation anyway.
Rather, it leaves me to wonder, in the unlikely event of any of this being taken seriously, where does it leave our traditional singers; what is their role in non-existent traditions, folksong, oral transmission – are they only song repeaters; have they had no part in the making of the songs? And where does it leave the working people, farmers, fishermen, weavers, miners….. who I have always believed made, preserved, adapted and passed on this music, song and story which is such a vital part of our culture – were they/we really cultureless and non-creative as I was told by my 'elders and betters' when I was a secondary modern scholar? Were Sam Larner, Phil Tanner.... et al, really just passive recipients and passers-on, no different than I was with all those crappy pop songs I was hooked on as a teenager? If this is the case, I would need some proof - a commodity in extremely short supply here, as evidenced by the plaintive plea "For the second time can we stop 'give me an example'."
I believe there to be no question whatever of the existence of an oral tradition folk music which originated from and reflected the aspirations, experiences and beliefs of communities (real communities – not a couple of fellers in a pub pontificating over a pint). This belief is based on what I have read, what I have seen in action and shher common sense.
It's hard not to notice that my Barbara Allen, Unfortunate Rake, Blind Beggar examples of songs which have survived for centuries and have been adapted and re-made over and over again - if not by an oral tradition, by what? I've quoted Mikeen McCarthy's selling 'the ballads' and hearing them sung back at him totally changed – if not by an oral tradition, by what? There are plenty more examples where they came from,
Like the two farming brothers, Austin and Michael Flanagan, from North Clare, who, when Travellers came into the area, would throw down their haymaking tools and go off and join them "to learn the songs and stories". Or Mikeen again, describing how the songs and stories were exchanged between his family (Kerry) and Galway, or Cork, or Waterford….. Travellers so that when they came down to us they were exclusively Mikeen's Kerry stories and songs.
Or then, from MacColl, how he was told of Scots tent-dwelling Travellers pitching their close to each other so they could sing or tell stories to each other through the canvas.
This pair have not once (apart from a piece of mealy mouthed lip-service - "I like Davie Stewart), expressed any appreciation of the role of the tradition bearers who gave us our raw material.
This sort of discussion always leaves a dirty taste in my mouth. Anybody who has ever tried to get support for research into (or even performance of) folk music knows what a blank wall they are up against from the arts establishment and the media in these islands. It's bad enough fighting the establishment to get your work circulated without having to fight your own.
Oh dear, I see we've finally descended to the old Armstrong (also attributed to Broonzy) 'talking horse' chestnut being offered as 'proof' (not forgetting Frank Zappa and Sun Ra – BOTTOM OF THE BARREL TIME, FOLKS.

At the risk of making this already far too long posting even longer, I'll put in a tiny part of an interview we carried out with Kerry Traveller Mikeen McCarthy describing a childhood memory of his father telling stories and singing songs to an audience of villagers when the family was stopped at a crossroads some time in the late thirties.
If this has been too long, please take comfort from the fact that it will be my last posting of the subject unless somebody brings up something new worth considering.
NOW WHERE'S THAT LISTERINE?
Jim Carroll

"M Mc   Oh yeah, always sing.    And a group'd get together then, we'd have an open fire outside that time.    He was very well known. A group of farmers'd always come around then, young lads, we'll say, teenagers, they'd all come round to the fire 'cause there was no televisions that time, no wirelesses, things like that.   
All down then, it often happened they'd bring their own bag of turf with them. Around seven or eight O' clock in the evening and they'd know the time the supper'd be over and all this.    You'd see a couple of cigarettes lighting at the cross and you'd know they'd start to gather then, 'twould be like a dance hall.   
We'd be all tucked into bed but we wouldn't be asleep, we'd be peeping out through keyholes and listening out through the side of the canvas, we'd be stuck everywhere, and he'd know it you know.   
And the fire'd go on. One of the lads'd come up for the light of a cigarette or something, he'd be already after topping the cigarette, 'twas just an excuse, "could I have a light out of the fire Mick", they'd say to my father.
Sure, my father'd know, he'd know what he'd be up to, of course and he'd say, "'Tisn't for the light of a fire you came up at all now, 'tisn't for the light of a cigarette you came up for now" and he'd start to laugh.   
And bejay, another feller'd come and he'd say it again, "bejay, before I know where I am there'd be ten of you there".   
And bejay, the word wouldn't be out of his mouth and they would be coming up along, coming up along, and the next thing one feller'd shout to the other, "can't you go down and bring up a bag of turf, and before you'd know where you are there'd be a roaring fire, 'twould band a wheel for you.   
So 'tis there you'd hear the stories then and the songs, all night, maybe till one o'clock in the morning.   And the kettle... the tea'd go on then, there'd be a round of tea and....   That's the way it'd go on.
We were off ceilidhing then, they'd invite him off to a house, he'd always bring one or two of us with him.   Same thing'd go on at the house then, that's where he learned all those great stories and great songs from, I suppose, ceilidhing from house to house, different counties, different stories, different songs. "