Very reasonably and moderately argued, LH. I just wish I had your optimism as to the smallness of the 'Jihad4Caliphate' ideal: but many have pointed it out as a Koranic injunction and duty. Osama & his followers are among them. They are not a mini-group with no influence, but demonstrably [9/11 &c] determined & with the power to make good[!] on their threats. They at least are more than just one guy holding up an "Islam will dominate the world" banner in Luton.   They are also politicians, so they are not going to proclaim all their aims at once and alert us all to the ultimate ones, but go on assuring us (as CarolC so naively persists in believing — at least, she hasn't come back to me on my last query yet as to why she so determinedly takes their word for it); but are going to tell us that they just want us out & that will be it, rather than saying, what I still persist is obvious to me, that that will just be Stage 1, & then it will be time for Stage 2: Caliphate-time.

Do at least, Carol & LH, admit this as a possible scenario. I have no real personal interest in it. I am 78 and have no children & the biggie showdown is not likely in my lifetime. But you younger people, + your children & grandchildren, are the ones who are going to have to live with the consequences of, what I still see, as your resolute complacency as to the bona-fides & trustworthiness to put their whole agenda on the table at once of Osama & his like.