"The point I war aiming to make was those the in relgious lobby (or lobbies) can't have it both ways. You can't say religion causes great good, but when it leads to great harm, it's only a 'pretext' or some such phrase. If it's just a pretext in the bad cass, it's just a pretext in the good cases."

Smedley, maybe you'd better take another look at that. I presume that, since I spoke out against the original anti-religious statement, you consider me to be in the "religious lobby." But once again, you are lumping all those who ascribe to a religious belief as being of one mind. And, believe me, if you really know anything about the history of Christianity—or just about any other religion—you would know that is not the case at all.

Not all Catholics agree. Nor to all Lutherans, or Methodists, or Episcopalians, or (name a religion). Why do you think there are so many different Christian denominations? Disagreements over any of a number of things, leading to schisms.

At one time, very early on (around halfway through the second century), before the Catholic church really took shape as an entity (doing its darnedest to be monolithic, but never quite making it, not even now), there were some eighty-two "bishops," each claiming to be descended from one of the original twelve Apostles, rarely agreeing with each other on much of anything, and "excommunication" each other right, left, and center! It wasn't until the Emperor Constantine and the conference that produced the Nicene Creed that there was anything resembling cohesion in the Christian church. And that didn't last long!!!

I've forgotten the exact number, but there are currently something like 150 different denominations, all of whom consider themselves to be Christians and most of them have some mutually contradictory beliefs. They range from so liberal that some say "It's hardly worth belonging to a church at all!" to extremely rigid and fundamentalist, trying to dominate every aspect of their parishioners' lives, and, frankly, wanting to take over the government as well (thank God for the First Amendment!!)!

And the same holds true for Muslims. Why do you think there are Shi-ites, Sunnis, Taliban, etc? Differences of opinion leading to schisms. Breaking off and gathering around a different emphasis or interpretation of belief.

Some just leave you along and welcome you to their churches and mosques if you feel so inclined. Others want to kill you if you don't believe as they do.

Don't try to cram everyone into the same pigeonhole. In addition to it being unjust, it's unrealistic.

Don Firth

P. S. For comparisons, let me refer you to the threads having to do with Uganda's death penalties for homosexuals and the gay marriage debate on the Prop. 8 thread, and the many statements of some, saying or implying "All gays are—(fill in your own negative)."