Well, well, well, GfS! That was quite a little temper tantrum!

As I have already written (definitely establishing that you read very selectively, assuming that you read at all), that I was told about these two, whom I had met on a couple of occasions, by people who knew them very well and had known them for a long time. [Shall I retype that in all caps, or can you actually read it as is? If so, read it again!]

Cured? No flippin' way!

From a post of mine on the Prop 8 thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 02 May 09 - 07:01 PM

I'm not all that sure that you do have more information, GfS, and most certainly not more compassion.

Most of the "cures for homosexuality" usually include a heavy dose of fundamentalist religion, involving "accepting Christ as one's Savior" and deliberately choosing a life of denial. More often than not, the participants in these programs either "lapse" after a brief time, or become sexually inactive altogether.

Another characteristic of gays or lesbians who have been "cured" by one method or another are frequent bouts of depression and anxiety.

Robert Spitzer of Columbia University claimed to have developed a "cure" for homosexuality through therapy he had devised, and published a study on his results. He called it "reparation therapy" and claimed that it worked successfully, thereby proving that gender orientation is not "hard wired." However, a follow-up study by John Bancroft of the Kinsey Institute a few years later found that "Only six of the 202 'gay' men and lesbians who had been through counseling reported changing their sexual preference to heterosexuality. According to the interviews, 178 failed to change their orientation and 18 reported adopting celibacy or becoming conflicted about sex.

"What's more, the majority of subjects were left with a mistrust for mental health professionals and had to relearn how to form intimate relationships. Many said they were misled by counselors into thinking homosexuality was caused by child abuse, bad parenting, or an unspecified 'psychological disorder.'"

Other methods of "treating" homosexuality involved so-called "aversion therapy." These treatments involved tactics such as pairing homosexual imagery with electric shocks to induce feelings of revulsion.

So much for the claimed "cures."

The brain research that led to the discovery of the differences in the hypothalamus of heterosexuals and homosexuals definitely establishes that there is a physical component. The question raised is "are these differences the cause or the result of a particular gender orientation?" This question has yet to be answered, but researchers are still working on it.

There is also the discovery—in identical twins, who should be genetically identical—that occasionally one will be heterosexual and the other will be homosexual. Rather than supporting the idea that gender orientation is a matter of choice, this unexpected phenomenon has been traced to imbalances in the infusion of hormones in utero during a crucial stage in the development of the fetuses.

So—no matter how you slice it, there is every reason (supported by physical evidence) to believe that gender orientation is "hard-wired" one way or another, and not a matter of choice.

Also there is the phenomenon of very young children behaving like, even wanting to dress like, the other gender. These children almost invariable become homosexual when they sexually mature.

Don Firth

GfS, the scientific information that I have been posting regarding genetic research on sexual orientation is the latest, and it is sound. You just don't like it, hence your tendency to foam at the mouth. And I have been honest enough to acknowledge that the research into the genetic basis of same-sex orientation is ongoing and so far not totally conclusive, although all indications are that this is the case. You, on the other hand, are so prejudiced and closed minded that you keep saying, flatly and absolutely, that sexual orientation is strictly a matter of choice—nothing more than a matter of a person flipping a coin.

My "bullshit politics," as you so rationally and calmly put it, is concerned with the civil rights of a minority—and to my opposition to the matter indicated by the title of this thread. Not just the Ugandans refusal to grant the civil rights of this minority, but thier intention to pass laws mandating that homosexuals be imprisioned and executed! And this is being promulgated and supported by at least one American fundamentalist religious group, "The Family," using spurious information published by Richard Cohen, the snake-oil saleman of whom you think so highly!

Lest we forget, Adolf Hitler ALSO advocated the execution of homosexuals.

As to the matter of your father. One this thread, you said that your father died of a heart attack. Perhaps so. But this is the post on the Prop 8 thread about your father. It's a few paragraphs down.

GfS in italics. My comments in brackets.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:38 AM

When are those that are trying to prove there is a gene that causes one to be gay going to give up?
Billions of dollars have already been spent to no avail. No one experiment has proved and concluded that there is a "gay gene," and no one ever will.

["Billions?" "To no avail?" The research, is, as yet, inconclusive, but there are sufficient indications that geneticists are on the right track in searching for a gene or combination of genes that determines gender orientation that the research continues. To claim that "No one experiment has proved and concluded that there is a 'gay gene,' and no one ever will," is neither true no scientifically defensible at this point in the research. Strictly wishful thinking on the part of GfS. – DF]

By the way, all of those who think that I have no experience with this, and that I'm just spouting from no experience with this issue, you should know that my father CHOSE a homosexual lifestyle after he had 6 children with my mother.

[There it is, GfS. In your own words! – DF]

Not to get to personal, but to squash any type of statement about my father already being gay, I'll explain this. He was molested when he was a child by his father and uncle. He learned how to deal with the shame and pain of this act by storing it inside and never talking about it. This, undoubtedly, led to prolonged psychological effects that plagued him and eventually chose him to choose his lifestyle.

[This is pure, sophomoric psychobabble. GfS is trying to find a reason OTHER than the fact that his father was a latent homosexual living in denial, as, almost assuredly were GfS's grandfather and great-uncle. And GfS's father finally gave in to his true nature. Once again, wishful thinking on the part of GfS. Much to GfS's consternation (not to mention terror), there are strong indications that not only is gender orientation genetically determined, but that it runs in families. Not all members of the family, of course, or it would simply die out, but certainly in some members. Further indication seems to be that the genetic determinants of male homosexuality are carried by some of the females of a particular family. – DF]

Further. There is this tidbit also posted by GfS on the Prop 8 thread:

To answer your question, I'm a musician, sound engineer, screenplay author, and composed a soundtrack for a film, and when I originally stumbled upon this forum, which was by sheer happenstance, I found it extremely stimulating, and interesting. Being as I also am a marriage and family counselor, I was drawn into some of the discussions, with a certain passion, if you will. My post explains my reasons for remaining a 'Guest'   In addition, I have personal information on here, that is highly confidential. Hope that answers your question. Re-read my last post, if you need clarification. Thank you.

You know, GfS, you remind me a lot of a recurring character on the Canadian comedy, "The Red Green Show. His name was Hap Shaughnessy.

The big difference between you and Hap is that Hap is funny!

Considering the childish temper tantrums, especially evident in your recent posts, you appear to have the emotional maturity of a four-year-old. Rather than giving counseling (if, indeed, you actually are a counselor), you appear to be drastically in need of competent counseling.

I really don't think it would be possible to have a mature and productive discussion with you until such time as you get your act together, start respecting the truth instead of clinging desperately to the way you would like things to be, and stop screaming and whining when it's pointed out to you that they are not.

Don Firth