"Well, if you fancy the pants of him, then you don't fancy him when you've got the pants OFF him, doesn't that show that you're more than a little shallow in the first place? I mean, shouldn't you get to know someone a litte more FIRST before you take their pants off?"

You are making the words fit your meaning Lizzie. Even long term stable relationships can go wrong in the bedroom (and other places). For the purpose of this conversation we are talking forced sex = rape and the fact that women have and should retaiun a choice to say no and withdraw consent at any stage with whoever they wish. The state of that relationship, ie one night stand or the first time they go for sex on the heneymoon, could still mean the woman says no. She has that right. To go past it is rape.

All this stable relationship long term loving stuff you favour is no better when it comes to rape. Women are no longer the property of their husbands and do not tell me that women in long term, so-called stable, relationships never used to get raped at will. Some still do regularly. Please stop taking the moral high ground because it is not what you would do. Be glad you have such a caring and loving relationship but never be so moral as to think rape could not happen to you.

It happens because rapists make it happen NOT because the victims ask for it in some way. And I repeat: Women (and men) must retain the right to be able to change their minds

mp