On the program "This American Life" this morning, the narrator described how a psychiatrist noted that all the homosexuals that she knew of—who were undergoing psychotherapy or counseling—were doing so, not directly because of their same-sex orientation, but because of other psychological difficulties, primarily such things as depression and anxiety engendered by the abusive attitudes some people had toward them due to the fact that they were homosexual—not because of their same-sex orientation per se. And it was this that led them to try to seek a cure for their "aberration," not their sexual orientation itself.

So—she rounded up a group of gay men who were not undergoing psychotherapy or counseling, and who, to all appearances, seemed to be perfectly normal and happy just as they were. No salient psychological problems, save their same-sex orientation, which some may have regarded as a problem, but which they did not.

She gave these men a big battery of standardized psychological tests—the whole ball of wax. Then, she took the results to a group of psychiatrists and assigned them the task of picking out any psychological problems. The panel was unable to find any problems of significance. And—NONE of the subjects were identified by the panel as homosexual!

So—is same-sex orientation a psychological aberration? Not so even a panel of psychiatrists would notice.

Now, GfS:

The matter of whether or not same-sex orientation is a condition that needs to be cured or whether or not attempted cures have ever been successful (not) has been gone over on this and the other thread time and time again. I have posted the date several times. And your "refutations" have all taken the form of calling me an "asshole" and saying that the data is "bullshit."

That is hardly what anyone could call "rational discourse."

As I have pointed out several times, there are no documented cases on record (save by unreliable sources such as you, or Richard Cohen, who is completely lacking in training and credentials) of "successful cures" that did not leave the subject in a worse psychological state than before. Often these "treatments" consisted of aversion therapy—presenting homosexual images to the subject, then electrically shocking the subject if they responded. The end result was a group of people who were suffering from anxiety, depression, who avoided the situation by simply abstaining from sexual activity entirely, and in at least one study of 202 subjects, six suicides.

You keep lying by saying that I would prevent same-sex oriented people from seeking psychotherapy or psychological counseling if they are convinced that their orientation is an abnormality. Not true! I have never said that. If they wanted to give it a try, okay. But I think they should at least be made aware of the results (or lack thereof) of previous attempts and the possible psychological "side-effects" of undergoing such therapy. The depression—and the suicides—of the cited study came basically from the fact that the therapy was oversold, and when it didn't work, the subjects tended to blame themselves for the failure. The vast majority of those who participated (78%, as I recall) finally said "To hell with it," and simply returned to their former same-sex activity. But on the other end of the spectrum, as I noted, six of the subjects were so depressed by the failure to achieve a "cure" that they killed themselves.

And as to my "political stance" being "fed" to me, don't be an ass, GfS!! (Sorry. I shouldn't ask the impossible of you.). I see things perfectly clearly, thank you, and I am slave to nobody's "political agenda"—a favorite stock put-down used by both you and Ake in lieu of a sensible response. It signifies nothing in the real world.

And about hopping on the "clue train."

GfS, you couldn't get a clue if it were the middle of clue mating season, you rubbed your body with clue musk, then dashed out into the middle of a field full of horny clues and did the clue mating dance.

Don Firth